How would you / have you handled this...

[evmori]

Check with your Council office. If the den is required to file a permit for outings with a Troop and none was ever filed, the supposed event should be considered invalid and therefore incomplete.

 

While a tour permit is required, by not filing one does not invalidate the activity! That makes no sense!

[ScoutNut]

So, it sounds like your real problem here is not the scouts or their parents, it is a lazy, ineffectual, den leader.

 

I agree with Lisa. Do not let this den leader slide, and hand out awards like jelly beans. There is no need. The den has until the end of 5th grade (or until the boys are 11.5 years old) to do it right. Offer all the help they will need, but insist they actually EARN the awards they are given.

 

If, in the end, you decide to simply give the awards away, why wait until Blue & Gold? There is no need to wait if it is simply a participation patch, and they are not actually doing anything. Also, why worry about Bobcat? What difference does it make?

 

Give them their patches at the next Pack meeting, wish them well, and say good by. I would not make a big ceremony of it either. Participation awards don't get fancy ceremonies. They get a patch and a handshake.

 

However, if you decide to pretend to the rest of the Pack that these boys actually did the work when they did not, then be prepared to loose some families. I would not stay in a Pack whose leaders showed that little character. That is not the role model I want, or BSA has promised, for my scouts.

 

Which brings up your CC. Why, when the den leader told him - ""scout 1" had been around in the program for a long while and very active, so he must have completed the requirements, so the DL was going to put the scout in for the Webelos Badge along with the other scouts in the den." did the CC go along with this? Why didn't the breaks get put on this runaway train at that point?

 

 

[Sarge]

'While a tour permit is required, by not filing one does not invalidate the activity! That makes no sense!'

 

Quite the contrary...

 

I am a Paramedic. One of the VERY FIRST THINGS I was taught 16 years ago was "If you don't document it, you didn't do it."

 

Where's the tour permit? It wasn't filled out? Oh, I see.

 

You don't document it, it didn't happen. No documented tour permit, the tour didn't happen.

 

That's how it makes sense.

With a real world example to back it up.

 

Isn't part of scouting preparing boys for the real world and instilling in them proper moral beliefs and truths?

 

How is teaching/allowing them to lie accomplishing that?

 

There you go...

[artjrk]

When a Troop invites the local Webelos to a meeting or event, can't the Webelos go on their own with their own family? Thus negating the need for a LTP. I know as a troop now, we invite all the local Packs with an open invitation. The boys do not come as a Den but as an individual.

 

On another note. Just because a LTP is not filed it doesn't negate the activity. What it does do is release BSA from any responsibility if something should happen to any of those attending.

[evmori]

Sarge,

 

You are getting the paperwork confused with the activity. A tour permit should be filed prior to any unit and/or den/patrol outing. Now if one isn't filed, that doesn't invalidate the activity. The activity still happened & the Cubs/Scouts still benefited from the activity & probably earned whatever they went on the activity for and they should receive credit for whatever they earned.

[Bob White]

Not all Boy Scout outings require a tour permit, and a cub attending a Boy Scout outing would not file a tour permit.

[evmori]

Not all Boy Scout outings require a tour permit, and a cub attending a Boy Scout outing would not file a tour permit.

 

Hmmm...... A lone Cub attending a Boy Scout outing would not need to file a tour permit. Actually an entire Pack attending a Boy Scout outing would not need to file a tour permit. They could be included on the Boy Scout tour permit.

 

Bob,

 

When would a Boy Scout outing not require a tour permit?

[Lisabob]

I debated whether to comment on the tour permit thing since it is kind of tangential. But here goes anyway. In my council, tour permits are only required if the unit in question is going somewhere out of council. I think our office staff might have some very cross words for us if suddenly every time a unit met anywhere but their regular meeting site, they filed a permit. Apparently some councils do require this but some do not. The original poster stated that his council DOES require it. So, let's spin off if we want to delve into whether they should or shouldn't.

 

Bringing things back to the actual webelos requirements, please let's note that the AoL requirements specifically state that the visit to a troop meeting and outdoor activity are "with your Webelos den" and not "with your parents." So, if a permit is required by local council for den meetings that take place in off-site locations, then I suppose a den trip to visit a local troop does, indeed, require a permit in that council (whatever our opinions may be).

[Karen_216]

Ask him to send you den meeting info and the requirements each meets. My Webs 1 leader does this. This is just so I know what's going on in a den that is so large. ASk about troop visits- ask to go along- ask and what troop they visted and chekc with scoutmaster. The reason is to perhaps change some minds of scouts who may be on the fence about joining a troop.

You can sit down with DL and CC and advancement chair so that all your ducks are in a row under the guise that you are checking on prgress. Have him bring all his program materials and what requirments they will earn and plan. Does he have the Webelos leaders book?? I'd make sure he does. Also let him knwo the requirements are not to be watered down.

Definate mistake on both the DL part and advancemetns chair about not earning the Bobcat before. We have to record in council system so there is no way rank would be awarded w/o Bobcat, likewise you cant; award Bobcat until registration is in to council. We need to show the paperwork to buy the badges.

 

[DeanRx]

Yeah Karen - I'm not quite sure HOW they got their hands on the Bear rank last year w/out having the paperwork in order w/ our council.

 

As for everyone still debating the LTP issue - its a dead issue. Our council (for better or worse) requires them ANYTIME a Den or Pack goes somewhere other than there regular meeting place. Doesn't matter if they ride together or all ride w/ their parents and meet at the location. This has been covered ad nauseum at EVERY council training I've ever attended (to include NLE, DL, CM, and BALOO).

 

For those that still want to debate this caveate please spin the thread (BW and evmori) - otherwise I can give you the name and number of the SE for my council and you can debate the merits of his policy with him. I'm in his council, so I just file the LTP.

 

Thanks to those that have posted relevant to the topic. I will continue to chew this one over. The CC actually is one of the leaders that is crying foul over this issue, but to my defense it is an issue I inherited when I took over as CM this past summer.

 

We (the CC and I) have attempted to encourage and support the WDL as much as possible, to include doing the sign-ups for Webelos Woods, getting him contact info for Troops, etc... As for ME actually taking this on...

 

I am the CM to a 53 scout pack with a son in his Wolf year. My wife already complains about the "one hour a week" (more like 1-2 hrs a day) I spend on scout stuff. I was asked (and declined) to be an adult leader for our pack @ Webelos Woods, b/c we couldn't get enough registered leaders from the Webelos Dens to go. How? am I supposed to justifiy to BOTH the wife and my scout running off to camp for a weekend when MY son can not even be involved in the campout?

 

Yes, they still have time and I hope they are working towards whatever level of rank they want to achieve. If they don't want to get the AOL, I'm fine with that too. I'd like to see them strive for it, but that is not my decision.

 

It just doesn't look right (to me and others that know the ranks) when the Web2 go a full year with very little to no advancement activity, then in ONE pack meeting they ALL have completed the Citizen WAP, the Aquanaunt WAP, and the Fitness WAP to qualify for the Webelos Badge. Not saying that those three WAP's can not be done in a one month period, but to go from nothing to having done it all ?!?! It certainly didn't look right to the CC (son is a Web1) and the Web1 DL who has been working w/ their den for the better part of the summer and fall to get to the same point in advancement.

[DeanRx]

Right now its pretty apparent to some of the adults involved with Web1 that there is a different standard being held for their den vs. the Web2 den.

 

As for any other adults / scouts understanding this issue... I doubt it. Most don't know about / understand the Webelos rank requirements until they get to those years in the program. Most Tiger, Wolf, and Bear DL's have no idea what is involved in the Webelos rank. The only parents that would have a clue about it are any that have an older scout that has already gone through the Webelos years.

[Basementdweller]

The meeting before the B&G we had just finished going thru the books to see who earned their rank advancement. Everyone had been given requirements to work on with their Akela every week. One young man in the Bear den was very upset that he would not be receiving his rank advancement......He only had completed 3 requirements. I had spoke with him and his mom several times Well, He was in tears, his mother who is an elder in the CO and was working in another part of the building came rushing over and asked why I was singling her son out.

 

I explained the situation. Her response was "Oh thats all" She took the book from him and for the next 10 minutes signed everything in the book right in front of me, I mean everything, electives and all. She said "there now give him his damn award". I told her that from what I had just witnessed I would have to speak with the Pack Leadership about it. Oh that's right they are already gone. Well I will try to get a hold of them.

 

Well I didn't bother to call anyone, It was BS and she knew it. At the B&G when the Bears received their awards and her son was not called, She shouted You missed some one. I responded that everyone who earned the rank was awarded that rank, and I will speak with you after the banquet about it. She was with her family carrying on the rest of the ceremony. A real low point for me.

 

The CM came over and asked what was going on. I explained to him the whole story. His response was "oh my".

 

Well, no one was happy. She with drew her son out of Cubs because of the incident and trashes the Pack and me personally at every opportunity. Scout Sunday I heard she what running her mouth while the cubs were on the Platform.

[Lisabob]

Ouch. That's an ugly situation, basementdweller.

 

Dean, you said that the parents of lower-ranked boys don't know what's happening with the webelos requirements and that is probably true, but if they stick with it, some of them will figure it out (and of those, some will care, some will not).

 

I do not think you necessarily have to attend everything with this den or serve as a stand-in den leader since the WDL isn't doing his job. On the other hand, you could have a chat with the guy about advancement, ask him to help you understand what the boys did to earn those particular badges, and let him know you want to help him ensure that the boys who are interested have the opportunity to earn AoL. Tell the WDL that you will be scheduling a visit for BOTH webelos dens to a couple of troop meetings, and follow up by helping BOTH dens schedule a visit to a troop's outdoor activity (or two). If boys don't show up then that's on their shoulders but make it clear to all your webelos families and leaders - NOW - that in order to earn the Arrow of Light award the boys must either attend, or make alternate arrangements and that you'd expect the WDL to keep you in the loop in the latter case. (Including both dens means you can check w/ the W1 DL to see who showed up. It also means W1 boys have many more opportunities to complete those requirements - no point in waiting til they're W2s to do it, really.)

 

As for citizen, fitness, and aquanaut, well (assuming a kid can swim), that's a pretty easy combination and an afternoon at the pool should suffice for aquanaut. However, note too that a boy must EITHER spend some time in a row boat with an adult OR earn the swimming belt loop (while a webelos) as part of the requirements. Now the belt loop is easy to earn, but if the DL is saying they got aquanaut but he isn't asking for the belt loop, then you could ask him to let you know when/where they went row boating - because, at least where I live, that's not a common activity and would raise a red flag in terms of believe-ability.

[ScoutNut]

Earning your swimming belt loop is only an OPTION for Aquanaut. Aquanaut can be earned without it.

 

edited to add - The rowboat requirement is also an option.

 

Aquanaut can be earned with out doing either of those options.(This message has been edited by scoutnut)

[kraut-60]

Basementdweller; I had a similar predicament when I was a Webelos Den leader. I had one scout who every meeting had something more signed off in his book. At first I was very glad I had such a motivated scout who was so capable. I asked this same scout to explain some of what was involved in earning a specific badge to the other scouts in the den when we worked on an activity pin during a den meeting that this scout had already earned...well, he didnt remember what he had done for that pin (I dont recall what pin as it was 6 years ago).

 

I figured that being a normal kid, he had sort of forgotten what was involved and I didnt dwell on it. A month or so later, the den was working on a pin this scout had just earned the month before...again, I asked him to help the den members out with the boys point of view and he stated he didnt know what he had done.

 

His mother(hover variety), would normally corner me either before or after each meeting and point out the latest thing she had signed him off for...I pointed out to her that in Webelos, the den leader normally took care of the akela duties. She immediately signed up as an assistant Webelos den leader(never went to training and never helped out at den or pack meetings).

 

This scout crossed over to Boy Scouts and struggled with the rank advancements. He did earn his Tenderfoot rank by careful work with me (new ASM) and the SM. However, the saturday morning the troop was departing for summer camp, this scout showed up and left...and not for summer camp. He dropped out of scouts. I know his uncle and from him I learned that this boy couldnt handle the idea of having to do the work on his own.

 

This scouts mother, like the mother(likely another hover type) you encountered with the "paper bear" did each of their sons a great dis-service in teaching them nothing of great value...only that "mommy" will fix it and do the work for you. Hover mothers are a true menace to scouting.