How would you / have you handled this...

[DeanRx]

So, I see an issue on the horizon for our pack... I want to put it out there for the group and see what sticks:

 

Advancement vs. Achievements

 

We have a few scouts that are active in the Pack, but do not actively work towards achieving their rank. I'm fine with this. We provide program that offers opportunities to do activities that lead themselves to rank advancement, but we do not (nor do I want to) put on a belt-loop-o-ramma, or rank-o-ramma, etc...

 

The few scouts that have historically not made advancement a priority in their scouting are approaching their age out into Boy Scouts.

 

The delemia: What to do if the DL for these scouts suddenly puts them in for the Webelos badge and the Arrow of Light (AOL)? (we've had two scouts so far put up for Webelos badge that I'm pretty sure did not complete all the requirements)... however proving this is a hard thing to do.

 

While I know the requirement to pass an acheivement in cubbies is "Do your best", that kind of implies an attempt will at least be made. I as a CM also know I cannot add / delete from the requirements for a given rank. Also, there is no BOR for any cub rank (to include the AOL), so if the parents say the kid did it and the DL is willing to sign off - I am really reluctant to question if ALL achievements have been done.

 

With that said - the AOL does have requirements (such as visit Boy Scout Troops / Go on a Boy Scout sponsored outing / etc...) that requires a local tour permit be filed for the activity. The boys obviously haven't done this if the tour permit was never filed (unless they did it without a LTP - which I or the CC would have known about).

 

Bottom line: What (as a CM or CC) would your course of action be within the pack if you have a few scouts being presented for rank advancement (any rank) that you have strong suspicion had not at least made an attempt to complete the achievemnets. Yet, you have parents and DL(s) willing to sign off for them?

 

One part of me thinks it needs to be enforced because it cheapens the rank award for those that actually do the work to attain it. I am getting some pressure from other parents within the pack to address the issue, using this as their argument. The other part thinks the only one really being cheated is the scout who gets the rank without putting in the effort. Its kind of like two kids in the same class doing a report, yet one kid's parents do all the work for him. They get the same grade, its not fair, but the one that gets hurt in the long run is the 'cheater'.

 

In cubbies, you are specifically prohibited from any type of "test" or Board of Review for the scout - that is adding requirements which is not allowed.

 

So... sage old CM's (and the young ones too) - how would you / did you handle such a situation in your pack? What was the outcome? If you had it to do over agian, what (if anything) would you have done differently?

 

While not a front burner issue right now - I see this as the freight train 2 miles up the track, its not slowing down, and my shoe is caught on the railroad ties... Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any insight you might provide.

 

Dean

 

[bkale]

This will be a tough one for you.

 

First of all.. Cub Scouting is a family oriented program. Sign off is done by the Akela (parent at home and DL at meetings). You have to respect the signature of the parent... however.. that being said... you can "educate" the group as to the future outcome of their actions.

 

Number one action on your part is to talk to the DL. The CM is responsible for the Program and the DL works in the Program. If you feel that having a one-on-one talk would be taken wrong, have a Program meeting (CM, ACM, DLs, ADLs only). Advise the group that Cub Scouts is about "Doing their Best" but not just breathing and getting a patch. A boy learns his own strength and character by stretching and reaching just beyond his fingertips. If he is not doing that, he gets the wrong expectations and feels entitled (problem with a LOT of people these days). This discussion you have with your leaders should instill in them the lasting legacy they are teaching these boys.

 

Second action... a gentle talk with ALL of your parents. Remind them that they have the ultimate responsibility in Cub Scouting to set the example. If they allow their boys to move forward or coast without tryingthings, they will have created boys without drive, character, and self-worth. Seems like a really big trip to lay on them.. and it is - but it is the core of what we are doing. Remind them that ever action (or non-action) either builds or tears down character.

 

Lastly... you will have to accept that it is happening if the parents and DL do not change. You do have the right to ask the CC/COR to remove the DL but that will be messy and should be your very last resort. The boys will see this as well and what are they learning from that?

 

Use your CM minutes every time you can and remind everyone of the opportunities they have to grow and become more than they were that morning when they woke up.

 

As to your boys coasting thru the program... sounds a little like they haven't found their niche and felt challenged. Your program staff needs to look at more diverse program and adding some more fun (educational) activities that will prepare these boys for Boy Scouts (ultimate goal of Cub Scouts).

 

Approach it all with calm determination to show a character that is worthy of emmulation and you will do fine.

 

Good Luck!

 

BK

NE-IV-215

[kbandit]

Why would they need to file a local tour permit? You only need the permit if you are traveling out of your Council area. There is a lot of distrust that I'm reading in your post. Is there something I'm missing?

 

Does your Webelos do their "own" thing and maybe your just not up to speed with what they have been doing? Have a cup of coffee with DL and have a friendly chat as to what they have been doing. You might be pleasently suprised.

 

The tour permit still has me puzzled as to why it would be required?

 

I am with a boy scout troop that invites Webelos to attend outings and campouts with us. We do not invite the whole pack and usually deal with the Webelos leader.

[evmori]

Why would they need to file a local tour permit? You only need the permit if you are traveling out of your Council area.

 

Another old Scout tale. You need a tour permit anytime you are traveling as a unit or den to anywhere other than your normal meeting place.

[ScoutNut]

Actually, different councils can have different requirements for filing a Local Tour Permit.

 

Some councils require one everytime you leave your meeting place. Oters only require it when you leave your district/council area. You also have a lot in between. Your best bet to get it right for YOUR council is to give them a call and ask.

 

For the Cub levels of Tiger thru Bear, there is really nothing that can be done. Once the parent signs off on a requirement, it can not be challenged.

 

Webelos are different because it is no longer the parent who approves completion. The den leader, or a DL approved activity pin counselor, are the only ones who can sign off on completed requirements.

 

bkale's approach is your best one. Remind the parents of the purpose of Cub Scout advancement, and their role in it. Remind the den leaders (especially the Webelos leaders) of the same thing.

 

[evmori]

If you read the actual permit I don't think you find anything that deals with any local option.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34426.pdf

 

 

[click23]

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents."

 

And, great advise from bkale.(This message has been edited by click23)

[evmori]

And the same section of the G2SS states

 

If a unit plans a trip within 500 miles of the home base, it is important that the unit obtain a local tour permit.

 

So filing a tour permit would be the wise thing to do.

[Greaves]

man.

 

I have tried to start thispost four times, and can't seem to get it right.

 

Scouts are expected to be honest. Parents are expected to set the example for their children. Den Leaders are expected to have expectations.

 

With this being the Webelos den, I would invite the DL for a coffee. I would want to know that he understands and feels comfortable directing the Webelos program. The DL is Akela for that group, and he should be confident that he has the final say-so(and that mom & dad are no longer the primary reporters of achievements)

 

Having said that, is it possible that the Webelos realised this was their last chance and they finally got motivated to get things done? They are growing up, after all, and there should be room in your mind to allow that possibility.

[Karen_216]

I understand your delimna as CM. You should believe your DLs.If you believe this person is not honest then he/she shoule not be a DL.

Review all the Webelos and AOL requirements and le them know you are there to help.

If they haven't filed LTP and you need them to do so, then let them know that in the future it needs to be done. Our council has told us we only need for out of disctrict activities or overnights other than council operated camps.

They told us if we are going individually to an event and meeting up somewhere and it's not an overnight we dont' need to fiel (such as sporting event).

Go over your expectations with all the pack, you can;t do anything about the past just handle the future. Also make sure they sign off whent he boys ahve done the acitivities- they may have some other arrangements with the families about making up requirements if they missed meetings. Also if they are active in the pack and go to events- why would they have trouble making rank?

Bottom line. If DL an parents put in then I'd not stress it out and micro manage.

 

[DeanRx]

First-

 

Thanks for all the replies - please keep them coming...

 

Second (so we can put this side issue to bed) - OUR council SDIC (San Diego / Imperial Council) requires LTP's for ANY group outing by a Den or Pack that requires travel to ANY site other than the group's normal meeting place. All the DL's know and historically have followed this rule (our CC is a lawyer - so makes sure its followed).

 

A couple reasons I am suspicious:

 

ONE - These Webelos have done very little in their Web1 year. They didn't even complete the requirements for the Webelos badge. Now, all of a sudden, they are zipping along on Web Activity pins / etc... Like one poster stated - maybe they finally have seen the light and know they have a limited time to get this done.

 

TWO - A recent conversation b/t the DL and CC (relayed to me by the CC)... Our CC had been speaking w/ the DL regarding rank advancement and the DL made the comment that "scout 1" had been around in the program for a long while and very active, so he must have completed the requirements, so the DL was going to put the scout in for the Webelos Badge along with the other scouts in the den.

 

THREE - A the last pack meeting, I was informed 5 minutes before the start (by this same DL), that "scout2" would not be receiving the Webelos Badge the advancement chair had picked up (at the DL's request), b/c it was discovered after the fact, that "scout2" has never completed the BOBCAT requirements and thus cannot be awarded any other rank before he does the BOBCAT! This was NOT a tracking error by council, the scout had actually never completed the Bobcat rank badge. Mind you, "scout2" joined last year (when I was not the CM) and got a free pass towards the end of the year to get his Bear rank. At the time, we had a different CM and advancement chair, both of which were nice folks - but not exactly on top of the requirements, let alone tracking the paperwork correctly.

 

So, I have a DL with a "If they do the time, they get the rank" attitude, coupled with a precedent of one scout in that den that has already received a rank (Bear) in the previous year without completing the BOBCAT, that was now put in for the Webelos badge, but had it dis-allowed (by the DL - after having the requirement for Bobcat pointed out by the advancement chair). This den historically has very little parent involvement aside from our one willing (yet somewhat misguided DL), so its not like the parents in the den are going to say anything about it one way or another.

 

It is a small Webelos2 den and I highly doubt many (if any) are planning on continuing on to Boy Scouts. I am inclined to let them do there own thing (i.e. let time in = rank), but then set the right tone with the remaining dens. Maybe next spring at the annual Pack planning meeting - the Web2 will be gone and I, the CC, and the Advancement Chair can re-inforce / re-establish some guidelines for DL's and parents to make sure achievements are actually being accomplished.

 

Our Webelos1 DL, our Bear DL, our 3 Wolf DL's, and the Tiger DL all get it and have set expectations. They work with the parents to insure acheivements are being met. My only rub - a majority of the "its not fair" feedback I am getting comes from a couple of the lower rank DL's.

 

My delemia is: HOW? Do I influence my lower rank DL's to let the issue drop and still encourage them to provide the high level of integrity they have towards rank advancement in their own den?

 

My reasoning is this: The DL involved has been around MUCH longer than me. His scouts are going to age out next year. They are marginally active and I have heard very little talk of them persuing Boy Scouts. They are small (3 to 4 boys in the den), in a pack of over 50 scouts. The strong DL's I do have (in Web1, Bears, 3 Wolf dens, and Tigers) make up the majoity of the pack. They understand and support the "program" much more.

 

I just don't want the precedent to be... "well if you hang in there until Web2, you're going to make AOL". As we have only graduated our first Web2 den last year, we don't have a great amount of history to go on. The two scouts that did earn AOL last year - I was Tiger DL at the time, so I don't know if they actually did it, or just got it "given" to them. However, knowing those two boy's parents - they did everything by the book (plus some extra along the way).

 

Thanks again for your input - please keep more coming - not an issue I look forward to facing, b/c I'm going to have to be the "bad guy" to one side or the other eventually. I just want to make an informed decision before I take action.

 

Thanks again-

 

Dean

[SctDad]

I have to agree with what some of the others are saying. Webelos are signed off by the DL. Not the parents. Try having the Webelos opening the pack meeting and showing off thier new skills by reciting the Scout law and Promise.

 

That would be kind of a checks and balances system without calling anyone out.

 

Also, collect all the books and mark off the achievements for advancements. Also, if they have not earned the required Activity Pins, Citizen, Fitness, and one other from a different group, then they have not met the requirements for Webelos. Plain and simple.

 

Also, your DL should be letting you know when they go to places like Boy Scout Meetings. If there is a question, contact the SM. He should know if they were there.

 

Hope this all helps.

[Sarge]

Check with your Council office. If the den is required to file a permit for outings with a Troop and none was ever filed, the supposed event should be considered invalid and therefore incomplete.

[Lisabob]

Hmm, tough situation. While I understand your temptation to just let things slide with this batch of Webelos and focus on doing it "right" from here on, I think it may be better to ask "what can I do to ensure that the boys have a real opportunity to fulfill the requirements?" In most places cross over doesn't occur until Feb/March so you still have some time to get these boys and their DL on track and give them a true experience.

 

Honestly, the webelos rank is not difficult to earn at all, and boys should be able to earn it quickly. Most of it is to be done at the den level. As a WDL I asked parents to do #s 1 and 8 on their own and I took their word for it when the boys reported back that they and parents had done it. I also left most of the fitness badge to families, with clear guidance re: what they ought to be doing, since many of the requirements direct a boy to discuss the material with a family member (not a DL). Ask your DL about this. If s/he says these requirements were left to the families, then I think you have to take this at face value. If the answer is that the DL doesn't know whether these requirements are completed, then offer to help him or her explain to the parents in the den what needs to be done, how, when, and why.

 

The one place your WDL might need more help with the Webelos rank would be with the citizenship pin. It can be tedious if presented poorly, and I've met a surprising # of adults who lack basic knowledge about the flag, anthem, and our gov't. So maybe encourage him to invite someone from the local community (military? police? fire? community leader? boy scout leader?) to a den meeting to cover some of the material. Even 4th and 5th graders still look up to these folks and might respond well to having such visitors. Offer to help the DL set up such a visit. Encourage the DL to have the boys work on webelos requirement 6 as a lead-in and/or follow-up to this visit. Maybe you can invite this den to do a flag ceremony at an upcoming pack meeting to give them an open opportunity.

 

THe arrow of light is more challenging. It would be reasonable to ask the DL how, as a den, they completed requirements 4 and 5 without filling out a tour permit (since apparently required in your council). If it turns out that they really have not done this then I think as CM the best thing you could do would be to offer to HELP THE DL ARRANGE THESE ACTIVITIES! Most troops should be happy to help your webelos with these too. Schedule something like this with help from some troop leaders and bingo, all the boys (and your Webelos DL) have to do is show up and participate.

 

Your DL may need some help with the basic scout skills that are part of the outdoorsman pin (required for AoL) too. Maybe you can also offer to assist with those, or help the DL find someone from a local troop who would be willing to lend a hand. Most scout troops have connections with some first-responder or EMT folks, or at least some leaders and advanced scouts with 1st aid experience (it is a required merit badge for Eagle rank and 1st aid skills are included in the Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and 1st Class rank requirements too) who could probably help with the readyman pin as well.

 

Bottom line: if you still have 2-4 months before cross over, you still have time for the boys in that den to genuinely meet the requirements, have fun doing it, and make connections to local troops in the process. It sounds like the Webelos DL isn't likely to make it happen on his own. So, as CM the best thing you can do (for the boys, and for your own conscience) is to help that WDL use the remaining time to have a solid program that allows those boys to really and truly earn their badges. And who knows, maybe some of those boys would even consider trying out boy scouts, if they had a good experience doing more boy scout-like things in these last couple of months. That, after all, is a large part of the purpose of the requirements for webelos and Arrow of Light ranks.

 

Good luck, and I hope you'll let us know how it turns out!

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I'll endorse what Lisa said, especially to advancement.

 

Now... trips. Tour Permits are not supposed to be a check a block,/i>, they are a process that makes sure you can get Scouts from A--->B and back in support of program activities.

 

If a unit thinks about planning and doing offsite activities right, the permit takes care of itself. If, however, a unit thinks about the tour permit, it can be painful.