My first real parent dilemma

[Basementdweller]

In thinking about the whole matter today, I would ask the COR to decide if she should stay or go..... I am thinking this is probably just the start and you have already lost the family. Might just be the time to amputate the foot to save the body.

 

 

 

[Melgamatic]

Thanks for all the input. Many of your suggestions are very useful.

 

I have had additional discussions with Council's popcorn guy, our popcorn colonel (kernel?), and our CM, other ACM's, CC, new CC, treasurer, etc.

 

The money thing isn't the important part. The mom gave us a separate form with just ouir $200 on it, and $200 of money to pay for it. The other $1200 is on some other forms that will go wherever, I guess with the money (the only trick is that I suspect many of the checks will be made out to our Pack; not sure how Council will arrange to deposit them but that's not my problem).

 

We'll lose around $500 of profit (our percentage is up to 40 or 41% this year), but there are always other ways to find money. We had a rough popcorn year in general, but that's not going to kill the pack like a sullied reputation will.

 

Our main concern is the reputational damage our pack may be suffering from due to the mom's complaints to council and general bad-mouthing at our pack meeting, etc. The council guy did tell me that she questioned our finances in a way which could have been considered an accusation of financial impropriety. The second time he talked to her she told him we were buying a second new expensive pinewood track (we bought one 3 years ago, which we'll probably be using for the next 50 years). So, she's just completely lying to anyone she talks with. The guy from council did not take her accusations seriously, didn't believe the "2nd pinewood track" story, and told us that as long as we weren't buying completely inappropriate or illegal things with our money council wasn't really concerned with how we spent it.

 

And, she is definitely bad mouthing us at the back of pack meetings.

 

Strangely, she is not considering leaving. That is too bad, because we'd all like nothing better. It would make all our lives so much more pleasant. She is really the only aspect of our entire scouting careers which has been less than pleasant. She and her son are now on their 3rd elementary school, and that's not something you see too often.

 

One of the other leaders, who has a boy in the associated troop, told me that if this mom's son joined his troop he and his son would be forced to leave the troop and find somewhere else. I feel the same way; our son's main consideration of what troops to consider largely revolve around not being in the same troop as this family.

 

Frankly, although I'm doing much of the work for the pack, and will be taking over as CM very shortly, the idea of moving on to some other pack and helping them as an ACM enters my mind sometimes, mostly as a pleasant fantasy.

 

Our CC and CM will be calling her this weekend, together, to ask her what she means by her public accusations. Then, Sunday night the pack leadership will have a conference call to discuss our options.

 

Most of our leaders are fully trained, some highly trained. We do not have a close relationship with our chartering organization, but I would call it a good relationship. We use their facilities, store stuff there, post pictures and awards on a bulletin board in their hall, and wave to them vigorously when the parade goes by. But, they are not involved in leadership selection (they sign the forms, but don't do anything beyond that). Our COR is the only parent who is a member of the CO, and he is not particularly active.

 

So, getting the COR involved would not be the first choice for us.

 

I know I must have read it in these forums, and probably in some of my training, but what is the proper way to remove a Den Leader?

 

-Melg

 

[DYB-Mike]

Melgamatic,

 

I feel your pain. I went through something similar with a Committee Member of our Pack a short time ago. Some of it was personal (outside of the Pack) but many Pack leaders shared my negative opinion and distaste. Things really became heated between this person and other leaders on several occasions and I almost wrote this Forum with the same question you just asked (I actually did ask it at a Pow Wow session on Pack Administration).

 

Fortunately the situation corrected itself when the son crossed over. We are fairly cordial now and I must say, to their credit, this person was actually very helpful to the Pack despite the personality problems.

 

Anyway, I believe that if you want her to leave youre going to have to enlist the aid of your COR, especially if shes a formal leader (she submitted an application that the CO signed). The Charter Organization owns the unit and they can hire and fire leaders. If shes simply a parent with a son in the Pack the Cubmaster and Committee Chair (buddy system) can ask her to leave, but if shes intent on staying for whatever twisted reason (who wants to be where they are not wanted?) you need to have the CO behind you. If things got crazy and she refused to leave it would be the CO that could take more serious action to ensure that she not return to their Pack and their property.

 

I feel sorry for the boy in all this. The boys can suffer in situations like this. Thats part of the reason I chose to just grin and bear it in my situation. However, if the kids as big a jerk as the mother then thats another story.

 

Again, good luck!

 

YIS

Mike

 

 

 

 

[infoscouter]

Sorry for your troubles. These situations are unpleasant and make what should be a fulfilling volunteer experience, just painful.

 

Removing a leader isn't covered in training for unit level leaders. You also won't find much, if anything about it in the Cub Scout leader book.

 

However, Unit Commissioners *are* trained for this eventuality and have resources to help. Find your Unit Commissioner, or failing that, your District Commissioner. They are trained to help with just these situations.

 

Good Luck.

[scoutldr]

All leaders are "removed" at the end of the charter year. You have to make a conscious decision to renew their registrations for another year. When you submit your recharter package, her name will not be there. I would think it's simple...send her a letter thanking her for her service, but that her services will no longer be required as a registered leader. You can state the reasons, but in reality, none are required, as all leaders serve on a year-to-year basis. Give the UC and DE a heads-up, that's all. They don't need to be involved.

[CalicoPenn]

There is a great way to make up that $500 lost "profit". You call the professional in charge of the Popcorn Sales and tell him/her that if Council gives in to this crazy woman's demands for the money, that the Pack will not let the Council/District do a Friend of Scouting presentation this year because the Pack will be doing their own Friends of Pack XXX this year to make up for the lost revenue. Then you tell him/her that the Pack will no longer participate in Popcorn Sales at all, and will just continue to hold Friends of Pack XXX presentations to the parents of the Pack to raise funds.

 

As for the crazy woman, wait until after the Popcorn Sales are over, then tell her to take a hike. No need to drag a commissioner in. If she's officially registered, just send Council a check for her registration fees and tell them she is no longer a part of the Pack. If you want to be "official" about it, call the COR, tell him/her you've dumped this woman from the registration roll of the Pack - don't ask if it's ok - just tell them its a done deal. If the COR squawks, tell the COR he can start looking for a new Pack Committee and Leadership.

 

[Eagle92]

OK I actually have experience removing two leaders, and they are not a pleasant ones. While your DE and UC can help and advise you on the process, it is a "unit matter." here is my advice.

 

1) Make sure the UC, DC, and DE all know what is going on as they will receive flak about the removal. TRUST ME , I got a 12AM phone call from the individual when she was informed that her services were no longer needed. Plus as I mentioned above they can give advice on how to do it.

 

2) If your COR and IH are not actively involved with your unit, you need to have a sit down meeting with them to keep them in the loop as they will also be receiving flak about it. Again TRUST ME I had to meet with an IH about the problem that was occurring in "my pack." The CC forgot to inform the IH and COR that he was removing the CM. Fortunately the CC was able to join mewhen I visited the IH and COR and go over the exact nature of the problem.

 

3) Put everything in writing so that it is crystal clear. While no explanation is needed, unfortunately you need to CYA in today's climate of lawsuits.

 

good luck.

 

[scoutldr]

I'm not a lawyer, like some here, however...if you don't accuse her of anything, what's to sue about? Just state that her services will no longer be required. No one has a "right" to membership in a particular unit or the BSA. Employment laws don't apply. Seems to me that the Pack Committee are the ones who have grounds for a complaint...starting with slander and defamation. Got to be able to prove it, though.

[ETD129-AW Chpt Adv]

You need to cut your losses with this "organizational terrorist".

As Scoutmaster, I have had the very un-pleasant task of having to ask two separate Assistant Scoutmasters to leave and not return. There is nothing to sue about, BUT, you must involve the COR and IH in the process and get their bye-in and support.

 

I realize that this person may have their sons involved, as was the case of my ASM's. But as unit leader I had to look at what was in the best interest of the troop as a whole. I can assure there would have been more damage and loss of more families and morale had we allowed these leaders to stick around. I really struggled with one decision, as I really wanted one of these leaders sons in the troop and the troop could have used them, but keeping the leader around again would have done more damage in the long run.

 

Our leaders and committee met, with the COR, laid all the evidence on the table and ultimately said we needed them gone. A letter was drafted, stating the facts of the decision and the fact that BSA is a private organization with the right of selective membership and their behavior was not inkeeping with the high ideals of BSA. This letter was mailed by certified mail with ALL signatures in place including the COR. The only reply we had from either was a nice note asking for their sons records. We even went to the point of pro-rating and refunding any fees and funds they had paid, and sending any earned advancements. This was dealt with firmly, straight forward and professionally.

 

Again it's and unit decision and was beyond the DE or DC, although they were cc on everything and kept in the loop

 

Know what you need to do, and have the confidence in your decision.

 

Sounds like you should have more that enough evidence for this to take place.

[ElyriaLeader]

Ahhh...Disturbed parent...too bad you can't just shoot them, then again...naw...let's just leave it at that!

[ElyriaLeader]

As was posted before, make sure that everyone is on the same page and all is documented (and signed by all participants) if you have your UC and DE there as well when you dismiss her that would be good. At the Pack meeting following the dismissal you explain that "Ms. X has left the services of the pack due to personal reasons, but you appreciate all she has done to help during her tenure" Done deal!

[Melgamatic]

Ha, so 14 months or so have passed, quite peacefully. Shortly after the Committee wrote the lady and asked her to attend a committee meeting to explain her concerns about our finances, she stopped attending all pack and den events. Her husband started attending them alone with the boy, who is now a Webelos. The boy and son have other issues, which would make a fascinating new thread, but we manage along for the most part, and while they can be sometimes annoying they aren't much worse than your average annoying cub scout or parent.

 

HOWEVER. In the past two months the crazy lady has come back to the pack meetings, and we even have another popcorn debacle!

 

She came to our December pack meeting, and while we were planning a Webelos camping trip to a cabin in December, she started yelling at me about how I shouldn't be telling her son and husband that they don't have to be at the cabin until noon (when the event started), but that they needed to be out of the house by 9am, so why was I telling them this? If it was anyone else it would have been a funny joke, the mom telling me she wanted to get the kid off to the event earlier, but this lady was yelling at me, in front of a lot of other people! Yow! Well, I let it slide off my back, chuckle with (at?) her, we all move on.

 

Now, it turns out, they sold around $460 of popcorn this year (BTW, my pack did fantastically this year, selling $15K, more than the last two years combined!), and haven't turned in all the money yet. Or did they?

 

The money came in several chunks, the last one being a purported check for $202. We don't have it, we didn't deposit it, they somehow can't produce the cleared check, but in any case, we're up to our ears in popcorn mystery with the same family again, if you can believe that!

 

The mom came to our Pinewood this past weekend, and nearly came to blows with our popcorn colonel, in front of cubs and parents. I missed it, but I did end up telling two men, one a cop, to make sure they were standing close in case they had to pull them apart. Yow, again!

 

I just wrote everyone involved a remarkably polite and fully restrained email, basically asking them to please check for data on the check, and if they can find it please let us know so we can track it down on our side, and if they can't find it then please cancel the check and write us a new one.

 

Amazing. I think this little mess cost me my popcorn colonel for next year, and who can blame her? She was willing to take on the job, but not this extra unpleasantness (that's what I get the big bucks for).

 

I am not going to involve this family in popcorn sales next year. I'm not sure if I'm going to tell them soon (and maybe they'll get insulted and drop out, which wouldn't be terrible), or wait until next Fall.

 

-Dave

 

[ScoutNut]

What I would do next year (and done this year too) is to make them pay up front for their popcorn. If they have sold a lot, they can take it in chunks and pay for it as they go. I would also offer an opt out payment to not sell of whatever the Pack profit is on the Pack's per Scout sales goal (although this could get tricky if you do not offer this to every Scout).

 

 

[Lisabob]

Dave, it sounds like you are the reasonable head in the bunch. Kudos for being able to maintain your restraint.

 

But I think you guys are too nice. Here you are talking about how to handle next year. I guess I'd be thinking there won't be a next year. I'd tell this lady she is not welcome at pack or den events. Either the dad participates with the kid (and they behave themselves), or they find another pack. Who do you want to keep more - this problem family, or your other volunteers and pack members?

 

I wonder what she'll be like when her son joins a troop?

[Knot Head]

One bad apple and all that. Encourage her to move to a new pack where she can set the calendar.