Webelos resident camp cost

[GKlose]

Had an interesting discussion with my DE last night at a function. He also was running the Cub camping program this summer, including Webelos resident camp.

 

I had decided not to take my Webelos to resident camp because of three primary reasons: ill-defined program, ill-defined leadership and cost. The DE only really heard the cost question. For 4-days, 3-nights at this camp, the cost was $250.

 

A week at the council's summer camp, for scouts, was $265.

 

I pointed out the disconnect to the DE. He told me that after I had originally questioned the cost, he did a survey. He found costs ranging from (as I recall) about $80 to $185, but he noted that the high end is up here in the northeast. I repeated that I wouldn't be interested, just from the comparison to regular scout camp. It is interesting, but he laid the blame on an adult volunteer, saying that he wouldn't budge on the cost factor.

 

Guy

[Eagletrek]

Wow!!!! Sounds expensive. My oldest son attended back-to-back Cub Scout Resident and Webelos Resident Camp this year in Central Texas for a grand total of $200.00 ($95.00 for Cub and $105.00 for Webelos). I grew up in the northeast and know things can be expensive but $250.00 for four days and three nights sounds a little over the top, BTJMHO.

[Beagle Scout]

Here in the Inland Northwest Council (eastern Washington and northern Idaho), Cub Scout residient camp was $120 for 4 days 3 nights and $90 for 3 days 2 nights, compared to $215 for a week of Boy Scout camp.

 

[ccjj]

Our council here charged $75.00 per person for Webelos Resident Camp. Camp ran from Thursday evening until Sunday morning.

 

ccjj

[Karen_216]

In my council resident camp was 204.00 for early registers(before april 1st) up to 239.00 after 5/15. Leaders started at 103.00 and went up from there. There were free leaders (up to 3) for every so many scouts going. I ended up paying about 75.00 for myself with the discount applied.

They did run a good prgram but I think still make out pretty good. I understand they have maintence to do- heard they just had new wells dug at quite a cost but it's still costly. The boy scout camps are 285.00 I think.

BTY- day camp 5 days 9-3 is 150.00 per cub. Again the kids have fun but they only get a t-shirt and the pack awards the belt loops and pins in the fall.

That said-

I'm thinking in other areas of the country the camps are not as seasonal as in the NE, thereby partioning the costs better. Also consider taxes and the cost of living in the NE. Summer is the main season to pay for upkeep, etc, so you need to take that into consideration too.

Perhaps you can use fundraisers to help pay your way. Have you gone to this resident camp before? then you can add constructive comments otherwise you don't really know.

My son had more than the value in returns in experiences and fun! As did the adults that went along.Sure we had recommendations about ways it could imporve but it was an overall great experience- even for the Dad the broke his collarbone!!

[Bob White]

"It is interesting, but he laid the blame on an adult volunteer, saying that he wouldn't budge on the cost factor."

 

Gklose, why is that interesting? Did you think that the DE makes the budget for activities?

[rjscout]

We don't have a Webelos specific resident camp, but our Cub Scout resident camp is $105 (discount; $125 regular) for 4 days and 3 nights. I had a blast going for the first time as a leader. There is no charge for the first two leaders with up to 10 boys. The third leader is $50 unless there are 15 boys signed up. It is a GREAT price.

 

$250 does seem pretty high.(This message has been edited by rjscout)

[PACK15NISSAN]

We are in Daniel Boone Council in the South East. I know that a lot of our stuff is cheaper down here, our camp was $60 for boys and $45 for adults. You got a $10 discount for being a leader, I think in total I paid $105 ($10 extra for an adult t-shirt). It was 4 days and 3 nights like everyone elses. It was a good quality program, they didn't skimp on anything.

 

Our Cub Day Camp was $60 for the week was $15 discount if volunteered for at least 3 days. It ran from 8am - 5pm. They had snacks and t-shirts, the only thing was as others mention the Pack picks up awards and we had to pack our own lunch.

 

Move to the South, cause grits makes e'ry tang cheaper.

[CNYScouter]

I live in the NE and here are the costs for our council camps:

 

Cub Day Camp 5 days (5 lunches and a youth T-Shirt included) - $110

 

Cub or Webelos Overnight Camps 2 nights (5 meals and a youth T-Shirt included) - $155

 

Cub Fishing or Shooting Camp 1 night (3 meals and a youth T-Shirt included) - $90

 

All the Cub overnight camps costs are for both a parent and a cub to attend.

 

Boy Scout Camp is $265 6 nights (17 meals) per Scout.

 

[GKlose]

"Gklose, why is that interesting? Did you think that the DE makes the budget for activities?"

 

BW: the DE was camp director this summer for this camp (the council does have a few other cub day camps, but this was the only camp running a resident camp, along with their daycamp weeks). It just seems odd to me that despite his assignment, and despite his research into prices at similar camps around the country (and I have no idea how many he actually surveyed), that the final decision came down to a single adult volunteer that wasn't actually running the camp. One guy who I think is kind of out of touch with what parents face all the time.

 

I'll just give my own example -- my kids did spend a lot of time at home, but between a town-run sports-oriented 6-week daycamp ($180x2, which I think is a bargain), summer Little League, swimming lessons at the local YMCA, and a week at Scout camp for one kid, there wasn't a whole lot left over. Certainly not enough for $250 for a Webelos resident camp (and it's not like there are 4 full days filled, with 1st and last days being truncated).

 

Yes, it comes down to priorities, but this one just seems way out of whack to me. Which is one reason why we didn't go (my original note lists the other two reasons, which would be worthy, but separate, topics to discuss).

 

To be fair, if this council needs to charge $250 for a 3-night resident camp, where regular scout camp with a dramatically improved program runs $265 for 6 nights, then the council needs to do a better job of justifying the costs.

 

But in fact, the DE/camp director was agreeing with me. He didn't agree with the cost either, and his research showed that we were both on the same page.

 

Guy

[John-in-KC]

Heart of America Council 2008 season costs, from the website. All are in-council only. Out of Council adds 10% for Boy Scout camp only:

 

H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation (Boy Scout)(9 days or program, 10 days from departure to return): 255 early bird, 280 standard

 

Theodore Naish Scout Reservation:

(Venturing): 100 early bird, 125 standard (6 day program)

(Boy Scout): 190 early bird, 210 standard (7 day program)

(Webelos): 105 early bird, 120 standard (3 day, 2 night)

(Bear Family Resident): 45 early bird, 60 standard (2 day, 1 night)

[shortridge]

(Please forgive the length.)

 

That is a significant difference in price ($62 per day vs. $44 per day at the prices you quote), but I doubt it's as simple as a stubborn volunteer. There are a lot of factors that go into running and pricing a camp, and your DE (NCS administration trained, right?) should be more than conversant with those. He shouldn't just agree with you, he should explain why it's that way.

 

Questions to consider: Is this a Webelos- or Cub-only camp, or are there also Boy Scout programs running simultaneously or before/after? Is it staffed by paid employees or volunteers? Does it run just one session, or are there multiple weeks to choose from?

 

I ask because I would imagine that finding full-time paid staffers for a Cub-only camp would be harder than finding ones for a Boy Scout camp (lacking the same cachet for the 16-to-18-year-olds who are the backbone of Boy Scout camp staffs), and thus the pay scale might have to increase. On the other hand, if it's a camp that does both, or if it's volunteer-staffed, that issue largely goes out the window. And if it's just for one session, your one-time startup costs (training, setup, equipment move-in, general support - all the behind-the-scenes work) have to be spread over a shorter period. Camps are not turnkey operations.

 

More questions: Is the camp at a council-owned facility, or is the site rented? If the latter, what's the rental rate, does the council have to sign any gigantic special insurance contracts and do they have to provide any special program opportunities (like busing them to an off-site pool)?

 

Those obviously have a significant impact on costs.

 

At my old camp in the mid-Atlantic region, which runs five weeks of Boy Scouts and then 3.5 weeks of Cubs and Webelos, the (full) price for a 3-day, 2-night Cub and 1st-year Webelos program is $170. A 6-day, 5-night program for second-year Webelos is $280. That's $57 per day for short-term vs. $47 per day for long-term.

 

But there are many other factors to consider. If your resident camp also operates a Boy Scout program and you're able to do an apples-to-apples comparison, that might be instructive. At the camp I cited above, a week of Boy Scout camp (full price, dining hall option) is $315 - or $52 a day. So the second-year Webelos program is actually cheaper than the Boy Scout program.

 

(Examples of cost changes for Cubs/Webelos... Add more pool lifeguards to cover an increased volume of kids during chaotic open swims, give each pack or den a staff guide/songleader/program specialist, beef up staff at the trading post and buy all-new handicrafts materials. But then subtract shotgun, COPE, rifle, action archery, first-year camper programs and BSA lifeguard training, and reduce the number of waterfront programs, as Webelos generally don't go kayaking or sailing but sometimes paddle in a canoe or ride on the pontoon boat.)

 

In addition, running multiple short-term camps (you can fit two of the 3-day, 2-night programs in a week) also involves more work for the staff than a single long-term program (like for the week of Boy Scouts). There are now two closing programs, two final awards ceremonies, two times the paperwork to be processed and twice the number of campsites to be inspected and checked out... and then a quick turnaround to clean, tidy, reset program areas, get new supplies and adjust campsites to fit to the needs and numbers of the new packs coming in. I haven't been to NCS for administration, so the logistics are hard for me to quantify, but directors do have to consider that.

 

IMO, the DE should have engaged you more in discussion and provided detailed budget information about how and why the costs were established. He's the director, he'd better have been to National Camping School - so shrugging it off on a volunteer is a cop-out.

[John-in-KC]

As a note, Theodore Naish (where HOAC runs its Cub programs) uses 1 staff for Boy Scout and Webelos camps (they run consecutively), and 1 staff for the Bear Family Resident camp operation (it runs concurrently from week 2 of Boy Scout Camp through session 10 of Webelos Camp).

 

Boy Scout and Webelos camps run on the same part of the reservation, hence their need to be consecutive. Bear Family Resident Camp runs concurrently on a different physical area of the Reservation.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[GKlose]

"(Please forgive the length.)"

 

Actually, thanks for the detailed response. I'd thought of many of these issues, but not all.

 

At this point, I'm not sure the actual details matter, but I'll add them in case you'd like to know.

 

NCS-trained? I have no clue. I don't know him all that well, and didn't think to ask. But I understand why you're asking.

 

It's a Webelos and Cub-only camp, with roughly a six-week season. The OA uses it for ordeals on the shoulder weeks, but other than that, I don't think there is much scout use during the season.

 

Staff? I don't know for sure. I know there are paid teens (some noon-scouts) working some program areas. There's a camp ranger, who I think lives and works there full-time. I'm pretty sure the BB and archery ranges and waterfront (no pool, rather a waterfront on a pond) are staffed by people with the proper credentials. Small dining hall staff. I would guess pretty much everyone is paid, and few if any are volunteers.

 

Webelos overnight, one session. Cub overnight, one session (the balance of the Webelos week). I believe the rest of the sessions are all weekday Cub day camping, with special programs on weekends, such as "family camping weekend" and "parent-cub overnight". This year, in fact, we went to the first family camping weekend, which preceded the staff training week. So it was opening the camp for the season, more or less. Program areas on the family camping weekend were staffed by teens that weren't really trained yet.

 

Council-owned facility that was probably paid off more than 50 years ago (it's pretty old, and most of the facilities show the age). Property tax (if there is any -- I don't know) is steep in NH, and might possibly be a major expense.

 

I've heard, but haven't verified that they shoot to get roughly 60 to 90 Cubs and Webelos in for the resident camps. I haven't heard anything about how well-attended the day camps are.

 

"(Examples of cost changes for Cubs/Webelos... Add more pool lifeguards to cover an increased volume of kids during chaotic open swims, give each pack or den a staff guide/songleader/program specialist, beef up staff at the trading post and buy all-new handicrafts materials. But then subtract shotgun, COPE, rifle, action archery, first-year camper programs and BSA lifeguard training, and reduce the number of waterfront programs, as Webelos generally don't go kayaking or sailing but sometimes paddle in a canoe or ride on the pontoon boat.)"

 

I haven't seen the waterfront in operation, so I'm not sure how well-staffed it is, but it would certainly meet national standards for waterfront safety, right? That would seem to be a safe assumption.

 

I'm also not sure about program specialists, but they have BB and archery ranges. No shotgun or action archery or COPE, but there is an "obstacle course" for kids they can run on their own (no staff). No trading post, per se. There might be patches for sale in the office, or something like that. Naturalist program, and crafts.

 

"IMO, the DE should have engaged you more in discussion and provided detailed budget information about how and why the costs were established. He's the director, he'd better have been to National Camping School - so shrugging it off on a volunteer is a cop-out."

 

Understood -- he's a nice guy, and I don't want to tarnish him. Sometimes I think he is so overloaded that his answers are more expedient than anything else.

 

Thanks again for your detailed response. I do realize that all of this stuff goes into running a camp.

 

[shortridge]

Move to the South, cause grits makes e'ry tang cheaper.

 

So do y'all serve grits at summer camp?