Where to Begin?

[CNYScouter]

My youngest will be a Tiger Cub this fall.

I want to keep him with kids in our school district and only one Pack (of 3) in the district fit into our schedule.

Last week I attended the Packs first Leaders meeting of the year.

On the way in I went past a guy rummaging through a bunch of boxes in the back of his station wagon.

This turned out to be the Pack leader (more on this later).

There were 8 people at this.

The Pack Leader (was a Tiger Parent last year took over in June)

Myself and a parent of another Tiger. (She is new to Scouting and willing to assist as ADL)

2 co-den leaders of one the Bear den (both new as Den leaders but were on the committee)

WEBELOS 1 den leader (has been Den Leader since Tigers)

WEBELOS 2 den leader (New this year)

The Pack has 16 Wolfs (2 Dens) and no Den Leaders.

The other Bear Den Leader has been the DL since Tigers.

 

There is no Committee Chair.

Some time in the past it was decided that one wasnt needed and that the Pack Leader would be CM/ CC and some of the CC duties would just be split between the rest of the Leaders.

The WEBELOS 1 leader was adamant about not needing a CC.

No one even knew who was listed as the CC on the charter and had to look it up.

They just picked one of the parents and put their name down.

Committee Members are listed on the charter but none are active (they did the same as a CC).

 

I went there to be the Tiger Den Leader and was offered the position of CC.

When I told them I was willing to be the CC or the Tiger DL, but do to my other Scouting commitments I did not have time to do both, the WEBELOS 1 leader spoke right up and said we dont need a CC, hes the Den Leader.

 

This meeting turned out to be the Packs Yearly planning session.

The reason the Pack Leader was going through the boxes he admitted that he had no idea what was in them or what he needed to bring into the meeting.

It seems that the last Pack Leader just handed him all this stuff and said good-bye and moved up to a Troop.

He also said that he received a call from the DE and the charter had never been done in the spring.

He had just found it in one of the boxes.

On top of this, the last Pack Leader never turned in the applications from last year so almost half the Pack isnt on the charter.

 

I can see an experienced Scouter being able to handle the dual role as CM/CC, which the last person was, but someone new would really struggle and it was clear to me that this new person was overwhelmed.

 

A couple of the new leaders made comments about not knowing what to do.

When I mentioned that there is training available for the new leaders the WEBELOS 1 leader interrupted and said You dont need training, its all in the books. As long as you are there for the boys thats enough.

I found out not a single leader has had any training, not even youth protection.

 

Not everything is bad.

They are organized and have enthusiastic people who are willing to be leaders.

They use the Program Helps for meetings which does do a great deal of the planning for you.

They do go camping as a Pack (but do not have a BALOO trained person.) and have a good schedule with active participation with most Cubs and parents.

 

The CO/COR for this Pack is hands off.

There is no UC for this Pack.

The DC for the district is pretty useless (I talked with him in the past and have gotten no where) and has no idea who the unit commissioners in the district are.

DE for this district has been ineffective and is on his way out.

 

I dont want to go in with Guns A Blazin but as an experienced leader, who has been in a similar situation, I see the possibility for some real issues shortly down the road that could really effect the program.

 

Because things ran smoothly in the past none of the current leaders see any problems but with all the inexperience I dont think its going to be easy.

 

I also see some head butting between myself and the WEB1 leader.

 

I really do not want to take my son to a Pack outside the school district as these kids will be all in the same school together once they hit middle school in 5th Grade.

 

Where do you begin in this situation?

 

Oh, Ya! I am off to Cub Scout Shooting camp with my Tiger this weekend!

 

[evmori]

Where do you begin in this situation?

 

Take the job as the CC & drag this Pack into the actual way things are done~

[Nike]

Pick up the mess, commit to sorting it, and then push forward. It may be that the time has come to close down this pack.

 

On another note, I always like to mention legal liability when people don't want/refuse to do training.

[Bob White]

My advice...Start Over! The unit needs to be reorganized. It is missing key leaders, a charter, an charter organization relationship, and many of its existing leaders are untrained.

 

Ask the DE and other key members of the District committee to step in and reorganize the unit correctly. Offer to fill one position and to help encourage others to join and get trained.

 

Otherwise the unit has no hope of continuing.

 

Let's just look at the "good points" you brought up.

"They are organized and have enthusiastic people who are willing to be leaders."

They aren't organized at all, they haven't got a functioning committee, they are missing several leaders, and they aren't trained. Heck they aren't even chartered. There is little if anything organizaed about them. The committee is being controlled by an untrained den leader out of sheer force of personality and little vey knowledge of scouting.

 

"They use the Program Helps for meetings which does do a great deal of the planning for you."

Unfortunately "they" do not have enough leaders to serve the scouts that they have.

 

They do go camping as a Pack (but do not have a BALOO trained person.) and have a good schedule with active participation with most Cubs and parents." If they had good participation from parents they would have a committee and all the leaders they needed, but they don;t. They are camping but who knows what they are doing? One thing we know is that they are camping in violation of the BSA safety policies and are likely lying on their tour permit since they do not have a BALOO trained adult.

 

And those are their only strengths?!

 

Without someone really strong in unit organizing this is a pack that will soon be dead.

 

I urge you to seek help from the district. A lot of help.

 

 

 

 

 

[CNYScouter]

The committee is being controlled by an untrained den leader out of sheer force of personality and little vey knowledge of scouting.

(/i>

 

I think BW you hit the core issue right here.

This pack is big enough to recruit the nessesary leaders but this DL is going to be tough to deal with?

 

What can you do with some like this?

[pixiewife]

"What can you do with some like this?"

The best that you can do, if you are willing to take it on, is to become the cc, so that you can be the authority. I understand that others look to him when he spouts off that cc is unneccissary. You have to find one other person, like the current cm, and get him on your side ahead of time. Aproach him in a "I'm trying to help lighten your load" type of way. When you address the committee, let them know that you are not just suggesting that they need this position, but that you are also willing to accept the responsibility. Having been an ADL for Webelos, and a Tiger DL (now Wolf), it sounds like you are much more needed as cc right now.

Change can only happen from within, so it sounds like you have to get in to start the ball rolling.

good Luck

~Pixie

[Eagle92]

Speaking as someone who is addicted to scouting (26 years overall) and cannot wait for his oldest to be a TC next year (I will be redoing CS training this year to prepare for next year), I understand why you want to be a TC DL. Thinking about possibility of being in your shoes where you want one position, but are needed in another, I know the situation sucks. I don't envy the situation.

 

That said I think you need to be CC, pending approval of the IH and/or COR. That way you will be in a position to begin changing things. Don't expect miracles overnite, but focus on the liability stuff first and work you way down. I would also promote training, and depending upon how big your district is, you may be able to get your own training session primarily for your unit, but others invited as well. That's how I went through CS training in '98: I started 3 new units and had my CS trainer do a special session in the spring for them. And since I needed CS before going to PDL-1, I also attended that session.

 

I also think that you need to get some help to reorganize. If the DC is useless, go to your RT staff and CS Training staff for advice. If you are familiar with some of the volunteers who are no longer active in your area, try and recruit your own UC who has alot of CS experience. that way they can mentor and coach the pack's leadership and won't be viewed as a threat.

 

Nike has a very good point in dragging the unit forward: mention the liability issues involved. TRUST ME, BSA will NOT support you if you violated policy, i.e no tour permit, youth in bed of a truck, etc. Lost one of the best leaders in my district due to him not following policy and an accident occurring. Insurance would not cover the Scout because there was no tour permit and he was in the back of a truck.

 

One thing I have seen happen and stressed when I organized units was an active committee is there to support the leaders and make their job easier. Committee members handle the finances. Committee members handle the advancement. Committee members recruit new leaders. Committee members deal with the charter process with the UC. Leaders need to deal with the Cubs, not the paperwork. the more people involved in a committee, the easier the job is for everyone.

 

But until you have someone to ease the burden off your shoulder, you have an irksome task and weighty responsibility ahead of you.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[John-in-KC]

My question to you is:

 

How much energy and emotion are you willing to give to do what needs to be done? You've accurately assessed the challenges.

 

If you get a lot of pushback from current leaders after taking this on, it's not going to be very rewarding for quite some time. If the leaders decide to wait you out, that could be for however long you hold the job. From what I see, the other parts of the Scouting system which should surround you simply are not there.

 

Search your brain and your heart before you decide to take this buy-in. Who is there to support you when the times get tough?

 

Please, let us know how you decide this one.

[Eagle92]

Just reread post and noticed THE most important training hasn't been done; Youth Protection Training

 

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS WDL'S PROBLEM. You mentioned that no one has BALOO training, and it hit me: Are they even filling out tour permits? I know that has been a problem in my neck of the woods, but during training, we emphasize the importance of the paperwork and how it CYA.

 

Not only would I push training, I would strongly talk about the legal and liability aspects of what is going on. Trust me I had to deal with 2 YPT issues as a pro, one was complete idiocy on a veteran Scouter's part that led to his permanent membership revocation. Second case was a brand new 18yo ASM who hadn't gone through training yet, and still though he was one of the youth (he turned 18 the week before summer camp and I do not know how it played out once I reported it to the SE). And BSA insurance will NOT cover you if you screw up and not follow BSA policy. Had to deal with one of those issues.

[FScouter]

"And BSA insurance will NOT cover you if you screw up and not follow BSA policy."

 

Where can we get a list of all the things that are not covered? Why is this not stated in the G2SS nor the annual charter agreement, nor the web site, nor the Troop Committee Guidebook, nor training? Why does the DE stutter and stammer when asked about it?

[Eagle92]

FScouter,

 

The G2SS is the rules. Don't follow them, you are out of luck.

[Bob White]

Which BSA insurance are you refering to Eagle92?

[Eagle92]

The accident insurance that the council purchases for each activity. Sorry I should have been more specific. If you are a leader on a council activity, say a council camporee, and you allow youth in the bed of a truck and one falls out and breaks something, then you are on your own as the COUNCIL'S policy for that activity will not cover it.

 

 

I don't know about individual unit insurance as I've never had to deal with it, knock on wood. But I would read the mouse type on the policy as I bet there are exclusions on it. From someone who has used the unit insurance, I am told it's worth the extra money.

[GKlose]

My kids have been in a similar pack (oldest transitioned out this last spring, youngest is a W1 this year).

 

The CC/CM has been perpetually overloaded, hasn't had training (until recently -- so I give him tons of credit for finally doing this). Den leaders are sort of ad hoc, making up some of it as they go along (crank kids through, get them their rank badges for an end of year "Blue and Gold" and then suspend pack activity until the next fall).

 

The program could be so much better if they followed the program (!). The CC/CM would be much less loaded if he'd commit to one position and then find someone else to fill the other, and suggest that everyone do Fast Start and YPT online (roughly 20 minutes each). But the CC/CM seems to be uncomfortable with change. I think he'd rather it just stay the same way it has been all along.

[Lisabob]

First off, let's not make this yet another thread about insurance - that's not CNY's main issue right now and it is easy to get bogged down. Spin off if you just can't resist picking apart that topic.

 

CNY, here are my questions/concerns for you:

 

1) Who is the CO? Can they be an asset here, if properly nurtured? Or are they beyond reach and would as soon dump the pack as help get it on track?

 

2) As CC, and particularly given the rest of the situation and assuming an absentee CO, you would end up playing a very large role in recruiting other adult leaders. It looks like you need (at least) a Tiger DL, 2 Wolf DLs, and possibly a Webelos II DL, not to mention one or more Asst Cubmasters and some committee members. Is recruiting other adults something you are good at? Do you have some adults in mind? Maybe some other parents of Tiger-aged boys, who you know from your son's class? Or other scouters who would be willing to serve for a year even without kids in the pack, just to help things get re-started?

 

If this isn't one of your strengths (and for some it REALLY is not) then I think you're paddling against a strong current here.

 

3) We know the Webelos 1 DL is a piece of work from your description. Is this fellow likely to stick things out? Supposing he does, he's got a max of about 18 months left in the program. Can you envision waiting him out?

 

The pack my son ended up in had WDLs (W1 and W2) just like this when we joined - well actually the whole situation sounds scarily familiar. One of them stepped down - the other did not, but over the course of about 18 months he became increasingly powerless over the group as people came to see other ways of doing things. His den stuck together and wouldn't be a part of many new things the pack started doing - oh well. Of his entire den of about 9-10 boys, all "crossed over" to boy scouting but only 1 actually joined a troop (not the DLs son either) and even that boy only lasted about 3 months. It was hard watching this happen but there wasn't much that could be done about it at the time. Can you stand having one den that just doesn't mesh with the pack, if this guy will neither change, nor quit?

 

4) Can you make this fun for your son? If you are up to your ears in all of this, will it be at his expense? I hope you don't take offense at that because none is meant, but I know (from personal experience) that kids are very perceptive and if parents aren't having a good time it can seep into the kid's experience too.

 

I wish you luck, sounds like a tough decision to make.