CM vs. DL

[gcan]

I second (or third?) the opintion that 'active' is a really open-ended statement! Making every single scout event is really, really difficult (which is why there is a perfect attendance award!). But, by the same token, the parents really need to explain why little johnny only shows up once every 2 months.

 

Honestly, if the kid is making an effort, I don't see the problem. That said, without attending den meetings regularly, the boy will not be getting quite a few of the badges/pins/ BL's the rest of the kids get anyway.

 

It sounds like you want to withhold his Webelos badge due to attendance issues- I think this is a really, REALLY big battle you are undertaking that you really don't need to. Little Johnny will already see the results of his lack of attendance in the awards the other boys recieve. If he is able to complete every requirement BUT the 'active' bit (which, again, is totally interprative anyway), then I don't see a problem in giving him the Webelos badge. But I would certainly have a talk with the parents about the reason Johnny didn't get X, Y, Z badge!

[Gold Winger]

"Scouting is too often about parents ego's. My son will never receive an award he did not honestly earn."

 

Parent's ego. Not wanting to "hurt" or "embarass" a child. Not wanting conflicts. All reasons that unearned awards get awarded.

 

The sad thing is that many involved can and will convince themselves that the award was deserved. "Sure Bobby didn't go camping but he wanted to. He can't help it that he's allergic to trees. He should get the camping patch just like his friends."

[Bob White]

There is no formal appeals process in Cub Scouting, so any disagreement with advancement would probably follow the path of any concern, it would start at the unit level with the Cumaster then the Commmittee, Then to the district committee then to the council committee then to the scout executive.

 

The specific path for each council could vary since it is not controlled by a national ploicy or procedure it would allow each Scout Sexecutive to determine the process in that council.

 

This is another reason why proper leader selection and training is so important.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I don't usually point out typos because I think it is impolite and I have been known to make them myself, but that was quite an interesting one in that last post, Bob!

[PACK15NISSAN]

First off, I think perhaps I was not clear and I do apologize if I mislead anyone it was not intentional I assure you. The original situation involving boys bringing in what they have done to prove they did is true. The second aspect was just a question on how to handle the interpretive part of the rank requirements not an actual situation.

 

I understand not penalizing a boy because his parents won't bring him, but if you just give the rank out despite the lack of being active what does that say. Other boys and parents will question why Little Johnny doesn't have to come to den meetings and they do. A parent should have to explain to their son, Johnny you didn't get rank because we didn't take you (own up to there own short comings).

 

Last year, I drew the card of telling a child he didn't get the WCA because he didn't come to all the meetings and do the requirements. I then went to his parents and explained that if they wanted him to get the award this is what they missed and needed to make up.

 

Basement, I agree with you on saying my son will never get an award he hasn't earned. I as a leader have taken an obligation to these boys to do my best too and I simply won't award something that a boy hasn't earned. I realize not everything can be helped by the boy, but giving a rank diminishes its value and disrespects those who have truly earned it.

[evmori]

What you are trying to achieve, PACK15NISSAN, is commendable & I for one hope you are able to accomplish it.

 

Just giving out awards or recognition because everyone else got one is just setting kids up for failure later in life. Not everyone gets everything & there are things that must be earned.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[PACK15NISSAN]

I know I am going to get and hear for this comment but I believe it to be true, and I won't pull punches on my beliefs.

 

People keeping mentioning the Cub Scout Motto "Do Your Best" and I get that and support it. But, "Do Your Best" does not mean I will win if I try hard or that if you give it your all you will achieve. Truth is that we all know, sometimes you "do your best" and give it you all and fall short. My son does his best but he doesn't make the honor role and that is okay. I have taught my son that sometimes your best is not good enough, sometimes some one is better than you, but you should always do your best so that you feel good and know you tried hard. "Do your best" should upbuild a childs self esteem but not make them think, they win when they really lose.

 

More parents and leaders need to teach kids the value of doing your best and giving it your all is not always a prize but rather something in your heart that no one can take a way.

[Bob White]

Except for the attendance has the scout completed the other requirements?

 

As far as :do your best" as it relates to the Cub Advancement program it seems to be misunferstood by some.

 

What the BSA wants the leaders to understand is that it is not a contest to do better than others or to meet a quallity or quantity expectation of the Akela.

 

If the den is building birdhouses out of tongue depressors and you have a young man whose "bird house" looks more like an ashtray that's OK, the important thing is that he still did his best. He is still very yopung and not everyone develops at the same rate. it is not uncommon for the children at this age to have huge differences in physical abilities.

 

But keep iin mind that families have other responsibilities than the den meeting, and not all families have the same resources as others. If the scout is not getting to enogh meetings to keep up on his advancement then try to work out other options with the family.

 

The focus should be on positive ways to help kids have fun and grow, its not about the ranks, it's about helping kids.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NJCubScouter]

Pack15Nissan, maybe I am misunderstanding what you said in that last post: It is true that in "life in general", "doing your best" is not always good enough to achieve what you desire. Sometimes you have to improve "your best" to meet an objective standard. Even apart from "adult life", this is certainly the case in school and it is the case when passing requirements in the Boy Scouts. However, it is not the case in the Cub Scout advancement program -- the rule is "do your best." Your best. It is a subjective standard, but that's ok for an 8-year-old.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[PACK15NISSAN]

NJ:

 

You are right in most instances in saying:

 

"Even apart from "adult life", this is certainly the case in school and it is the case when passing requirements in the Boy Scouts. However, it is not the case in the Cub Scout advancement program -- the rule is "do your best." Your best. It is a subjective standard, but that's ok for an 8-year-old."

 

However, in Webelos the activities pins have requirements set up much like boy scout merit badges. There are clear requirements and objectives set that the boy should attempt to achieve. I will award a badge if a birdhouse looks like an ashtray, I will award a whittling chip for a bear that has no legs, but I can't award something (especially something as prestigious as rank or at least is supposed to be prestigious) when a requirement simply has not been done or not completed.

 

All those involved, please remember we are getting into a hypothetical situation here.

 

Lets take the Aquanaut Activity Badge, one requirement is to swim 100 feet. If a boy tries his hardest and can only get 75-80 feet, then I will credit him because he did his best. However, if he does 25 feet, I can't award that, it is simply not close enough to factor in effort, even if it is his best. In the shooting sports pins there is a requirement for shooting a certain score, why have the score or standard if you will except something below that.

 

The bottom line is "do your best" is a personal achievement and has personal rewards not always physicl rewards. If I provide alteratives then I brake BSA guidelines on altering a requirement, so what do you do when "do your best" is not enough. I reward my son and my den with praise and other activies when they "do their best" but I can give out rank and other achievements that are specific because Little Johnny can't swim. The parents have responsiblities and obligations to their scouts to and sometimes they have to held accountable when they fail.

 

As far as making extra accomidations, like meeting with a parent and child on a Saturday to help one on one (no YP violations) with an achievement he missed or is struggling with, I will always go the extra mile when I am able.

 

There is no direct guidelines here and again everything is hypothetical anyway, but as the DL I am intrusted to lead this boys and get them ready for boys scouts. Giving our ranks to appease or pacify a boy who really didn't do the requirements is not my responsibility, that certainly won't happen in boy scouts (at least not in our parent troop). Parents in my den (those who attend) know me and what I expect, I am not a Scout Nazi dictating it must be done this way and at this time or no award, I am getting these boys ready for boy scouts and life. Besides if there is some one who thinks they can do it better and is willing to prove it, I will step aside and make way for progress.

 

[Pack212Scouter]

Pack15Nissan,

 

I kinda have to disagree with your aquanaught example. The requirement states swim 100 feet. If there is a medical reason that a boy cannot swim 100 feet, then it is passable. But trying and swimming only 75 feet is not acceptable, unless there are accompanying reasons. Part of Do Your Best is to practice. Especially as Cub Scouts get older, I expect Do Your Best to be on par with their abilities. There is also the situation where someone may not have access to facilities to practice. This doesn't mean that the printed requirement should be lowered because they are doing their best. If they cannot swim to the standard, they cannot earn Aquanaught.

[pixiewife]

Pack15:

Unfortunatly, I think you have set up too many hypotheticals in one post!LOL

 

First, the hypothetical of badge requirements. Those requirements are there in black and white, swim 100 ft, check off the requirement, don't, then don't. Pick a different requirement, or don't earn the badge, that simple. Or, as someone suggested, maybe they just don't earn the badge RIGHT NOW, and they practice, and come back to that requirement. All fine, all doable.

Something where you are earning a "fun patch" like wood burning, those are all given by you through your requirements anyway, so "Do Your Best" certainly covers a wide range of Wood Burning activity.

 

The problem comes with your original hypothetical of participation. Participation does not have black and white drawn out details. It does not say "attend 75% of den meetings, and one outing per month" if it did, again we would not have a problem! The way I look at participation is this: If the BOY is doing his best to be everywhere he can be, then participation is there. That boy may not earn every badge, or patch as the others, and he will probably have to make up a lot on his own or on hbis own time, and bring proof of making it up to you, but that is the price he will pay. He should never have to pay the oprice of not getting rank or AOL because of attendance, not due to him. If the same bot has spotty attendance because he personally forgets to come, or because he just doesn't fell like it, or he begs his mom to let him blow off, then that is his choice, and participation has not been met. To me, that is obvious, it comes down to who is responsible for the absence.

For me this situation is more than a hypothetical, it is a situation that we just had in my last Webelo den (they bridged this last Feb.). We had 2 different boys with two totally different situations. The first boy: our meeting were right after school, and he would "accidentily" get on the bus after school. Or he would cry and complain the night before and beg his mom to not make him go to scouts. He quit after the first year of Webelo's, and frankly, no one was surprised, and everyone wondered what took him so long. When he was in meetings we did not treat him any differently, but he of course had things to make up, and that just made it worse for him (in his mind). He also hated participating in the meetings he attended. Al oy of "this is stupid" or "pass" when asked a direct question. He didn't want to play when we did an outdoor sport game. He seldom added anything if we were 'making a list' of something. He clearly did not want to be there.

Boy #2: Came from a single parent household. The parent was a Dad, and this is not to sound biased, but Dad's somethimes aren't always on top of things! Also, this scout was in Hockey, of which Dad was the coach. Dad wanted son to do Scouts, and was excited about it, but the bottom line was Hockey was more important. Kid also spent major holiday breaks (and usually an extra week or two) in a different state with Mom. Scout missed many meetings, and most other outings that were held at non meeting times. However, when he was at meetings, ha was attentive, he actively participated, heck he was the only kid (including my own) who took notes! He always tried to add to the group discussions, and he worked hard to make up what he missed. now, all of the other boys in our den earned their "Super Achiever" by earning all 20 badges. He did not. He was diligently working down to the last minute to finish his AOL requirements. Honestly, I think he earned Webelo Rank in September (first month of Webelo II year), after the other boys had earned theirs the previous February (Blue and Gold of first year). But, I would have fought to the death with anyone who thought that he should not earn these awards due to lack of participation! When he was not in attendance, it was NOT his doing! When he was in attendance, he did HIS best!

 

Now, I am concerned that you do sound like you are working up for a fight that may or may not be there, unless you already feel that there were some participation issues in the past. I would think that the "issue" of participation is very unlikely to come up, unless you have a specific situation, that like my first scout will probably resolve itself. I hope you will not be looking for something that is not there.

Like many things, it will be obvious what the right answer is.

~Pixie

[PACK15NISSAN]

Pixie:

 

Here is what requirement 2 says for earning the Webelos Badge is.

 

2. Be an active member of your Webelos den for 3 months (Active means having good attendance, paying den dues, working on den projects).

 

If we have meetings 4 times a month (which we do), coming twice means 50% on attendance. That would not be a passing grade in any school and it will not be a passing grade in my den. As I have previously stated, I will sit down and let everyone know up front what my expectations from the parents and the boys are, and if any one is having a problem then I will go to them and try to work something out. If the boy is simply not in attendance he does not meet the requirements that are in black and white, therefore he does not earn the rank.

 

That was the purpose of the Aquanaut example, to show that many people won't award a boy an activity badge for not doing all the work as written, but they would give him rank for not meeting the guidelines. That is inconsistant and the boys will pick up any discrepencies. As a previously stated, I will not award something that has not been earned, if it is because of the parents, then the parents get the blame and will have to answer to their son, not me.

 

Just a side note, you have to swim 100 ft to earn aquanaut, it is not a choice part, it is a requirement.

 

I am not preparing for a fight, nor am I looking for something that is not there. I was trying to get information about what to do if this occured. It was meant to be simple, but since many gave me either false or just bogus information, I felt it necessary to continue the debate.

[jmwalston]

Pack15,

 

Do you have Den Meetings 4 times a month, or do you have 3 Den Meetings and a Pack Meeting? If you say 50% attendance isn't active, then fine, you have set a standard. Is 67% attendance an indication of active? I know you stated you are not looking for a fight, but none the less, it appears one is being set up. Don't look at the standards you set for your son as the standards of the group. Parents tend to raise the bar for achievement with their children.

 

Now, trying to return to the original thread -

 

"I have 2 kids who I have been informed by the former DL whose sign off on things the child has not done. The former DL just looked the other way and moved on, I am not that way. What I want to know is can the parents appeal to the CM and overturn me or do I have final say, or are others in CO involved?"

 

"One of the parents is good friends with the CM and the other parent is the CM. I am not going to let a child get credit for something they didn't do and I won't except lying or cheating as a way to let a child advance. I simply want to know what course of actions I have."

 

"I intend to have all work brought in or at least pictures of the work being done and will be talking to the boys about what they did so I can get an understanding of what they have really done. I realize that is a parent cheats it is a bad message to the child but still advancing does also. It is like telling little Jimmy that his daddy is a cheater and lier but thats okay as long as he isn't."

 

This is a problem between adults. If the Cubmaster and another parent lied to advance their child, shame on them. But Cub Scouting is set up to have a Cub work with their parents on requirements. Why would you tell Jimmy his dad is a cheater and liar? Does a child need to be told these things. You wanting proof of completion only applies to Webelos. I have heard on the Cub side of this forum many times "KISMIF." Don't let adult situations creep down into the boys' program.

[PACK15NISSAN]

Yes, there have been some issues in the past that the DL has been lighter on than I will be, but that does not mean I am preparing for a fight. I am trying to figure out what my options are and what the potential outcomes are going to be. It is important to be prepared for everything that I can, and knowing this is a possiblity I am preparing for it. As I have stated, I will always talk with the parent and other leaders before I make a decision, I will make arrangements when possible.

 

This is a Webelos den, so as DL, I and my ADL's are the only ones permitted to sign off on achievements.

 

We have 3 den meetings and 1 pack meeting each month typically. Sometimes we don't have a Pack meeting. Attendance at a Pack meeting is still attendance, so I child he comes to 2 den meetings and misses the other and the Pack meeting is still at 50% attendance. I do not intend on telling any child that his dad is a cheater or a liar. However, if I have sat down with the parent and the child multiple times and cheating, lying, or attendance is still an issue I will let the parent know that his child will not be receiving rank or whatever achievement because of the requirements where not met.

 

The problem with so many kids today is that they just get handed things they don't earn, no one wants to let them down or hurt their feelings. If they don't do the work, it is not their fault. I don't believe that way and I won't run my den that way.

 

If you don't earn it then you don't get it.