CM vs. DL

[PACK15NISSAN]

This is somewhat of a spin off of another thread.

 

If a DL and the CM have a disagreement over advancement does the CM trump the DL?

 

In a previous post some one mentioned a DL not advancing a child based on them not being "Active" in the den, if this or a question over completed achievements comes into play who determines if the child advances?

 

I know that at the Webelos level the DL signs off on all achievements but can a parent appeal to the CM over discrepancies or does the DL have the final say? Are other people invovled?

[John-in-KC]

Cubbing is not difficult. If a kid isn't advancing, a quiet, mature conversation between the DL, the parents, and the CM is called for. Remember, the advancement rigor in all things Cubbing is "Do your best."

[PACK15NISSAN]

Well that was a very politcal answer, don't actually address the question rather dance around it.

 

The question was intended to be general but I guess I need to be more specific.

 

I have 2 kids who I have been informed by the former DL whose sign off on things the child has not done. The former DL just looked the other way and moved on, I am not that way. What I want to know is can the parents appeal to the CM and overturn me or do I have final say, or are others in CO involved?

 

One of the parents is good friends with the CM and the other parent is the CM. I am not going to let a child get credit for something they didn't do and I won't except lying or cheating as a way to let a child advance. I simply want to know what course of actions I have.

 

I intend to have all work brought in or at least pictures of the work being done and will be talking to the boys about what they did so I can get an understanding of what they have really done. I realize that is a parent cheats it is a bad message to the child but still advancing does also. It is like telling little Jimmy that his daddy is a cheater and lier but thats okay as long as he isn't.

[Lisabob]

As far as I am aware, there is no formal appeals process for cub awards. Consequently, what you're going to get here is a collection of people's opinions, based on our own experiences. So, in my experience and judgment, your best option is probably NOT to dig in your heels here, but instead, to have a reasonable conversation and set guidelines that the whole group (parents too) can support from the get go.

 

Since you are now talking about webelos, you can frame this by explaining to parents and boys how there is a shift from having parents sign off on activities in the scout's book, to having the DL or his/her designate sign off. You can explain that this is in prep for boy scouts where boys are expected to seek out the SM (or his/her designates) for sign offs. This is a natural segway to working with boys to develop a set of expectations on how they will get sign offs from you. If the boys buy in, the parents probably will too, as long as you keep them in the loop. This is probably preferable to framing this in terms of "Your old DL Mr X was way too easy on you and I'm going to lay down the law."

 

But if it comes down to a figurative shoving match between you and the CM? Well then I'd say all of the adults have failed to do their jobs effectively and need to learn to play well with others, or else someone needs to go find a different pack where their views are better supported or in synch with the group.

[John-in-KC]

No, it was not political.

 

Communicate, communicate, communicate. There are very few problems in Scouting which can't be solved if we all act like the grown-ups we are and have a quiet, mature, conversation.

 

The advancement rigor in the Cub program is "Do Your Best."

 

While I agree with Lisa's post, if there's a real problem in your Pack's Webelo advancement, call the District Advancement Chairman. He'll sort you out.

 

Read Lisa's post. Her last paragraph has a good insight.

[Bob White]

Yes the Cubmaster can trump the Den Leader's decision. BUT, the CM better be ready to have another Den Leader ready to take the first ones place because odds are the first one is going to quit.

 

Communication and training is the a better solution. The CM and the Dl need to sit together and look at what the BSA advancement policies and procedures say. This should not be about who is right but about a mutually agreement to follow the BSA program, and it os the BSa that determines the BSA program, NOT the CM or the DL.

 

 

 

 

[PACK15NISSAN]

Okay, I get what everyone is saying about communicating and be open and honest the whole way with all parties involved.

 

What about when there is interpretation involved. Such as with the being active in your den requirement. Do I sit little Jimmy and his parents down and say, hey Jimmy is missing a lot of meetings and when he is not here he can't be active in the den. I really want him to make his rank but he needs to be here in order to do that.

 

If things don't approve then should I go to the CM and let him know what is going on and what has been down, and we sit down and talk about how to proceed?

 

I am really not trying to be complicated or prepare for a fight, I just want to be prepared for what may come up in the future and how to handle it properly. I love being a DL and I have worked hard so far and will continue to due so, so that the boys and everyone involved can have a productive and positive scouting experience.

[Scouting Mom]

I'm confused, is this a Webelos den or not? If not, parents sign off, DL needs to accept that, end of story.

 

If it IS a Webelos den, then the parents need to go back and read the beginning portion of the handbook that explains how Webelos is different from lower ranks and it needs to be re-explained to them that the DL or his designee is the only one to sign off. This process is part of the transition to Boy Scouts and to bypass it is doing a disservice to the boys.

 

Can the CM trump that? He's not supposed to, but in reality yes. Should he? Absolutely not. And I agree with the others that communication is essential to making it right for everyone.

[Vector_Joe]

Well, I've only been a DL for a few months now, so I may not have this completely correct. There are 2 issues with earning rank that you have brought up, participation and achievements. Achievements seem pretty black and white either the parents (or DL for Weblos) sign off or they don't. And it is a matter of do your best.

 

The bigger issue of interpretation I think is the participation issue. When I went through training, I don't remember this issue being addressed, but in practice in our pack, it is not taken nearly as importantly as the achievements. Some of the boys in our den simply cannot make it to den meetings (they show up for some, but not consistently). Maybe their parents can't make it, maybe they have other committments. But as long as you can see that they are making an effort and not completely blowing off the pack, then I don't think it has been a problem. In that case, it is just a matter of whether they have done all the required Achievements.

[scoutldr]

Hasn't the BSA defined "active" for us? (Active = registered).

 

[PACK15NISSAN]

Scouting Mom:

 

This is a Webelos den. I went over the new sign off procedures with all the parents last year before they crossed over from bears and I intend to do it again when den meetings start back up.

 

As far as defining Active as registered I can't agree with that. The requirements for the Webelos Badge say to be an active memeber of your Webelos den for 3 months and AOL requirements say to be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

 

It is pretty clear to me that the expectation is more than just being registered, especially AOL. It is expected that attendance and participation should be there for them to be active. I told the parents that there boys needed to be at den meetings and that is was a part of rank before, and I will bring it back up again.

 

Again, I am not preparing for trouble, I simply am curious how things work. I have no problem communicating with people and I will always address an issue or problem with everyone before I simply deny a boy rank.

[Bob White]

Pack15nissan

Except for this requirement has the Scout been achieving other advancement requirements?

[infoscouter]

Actually, the Webelos Scout handbook is the only place where active has a specific definition, which includes attending meetings, paying dues and a couple other things.

 

The question becomes is the boy "doing his best" to make it to meetings and participate as much as possible? Is *he* skipping meetings or is it a question of Mom & Dad making something else a priority? Can and should a den leader penalize a Scout for not being "active enough" when he has no control over whether or not he attends Scout activities? When a sit down with parents doesn't result in improved attendance, does the den leader then draw the line, denying the Scout his award for something he cannot control?

 

Every den leader has to search his or her own heart and examine whether they are applying an objective standard to that boy. He cannot be compared to the standards the other boys meet - he needs to be evaluated on *his* best - not his denmates. Just because another boy has better attendance than the Scout in question does not mean that they each have to meet the same standard. They each have to do their best. If the Scout is doing his best to attend and be active, then I believe he should receive the award and not be penalized for his parents failures.

[Basementdweller]

Advancement.

 

I have a problem with the CM advancing a boy who has completed only half of the requirement for his rank. The rest of the den was able to complete it.

 

So how do you answer "Daddy why did "bob" get his wolf, he didn't have all his beads?". I told him, he did not earn it but the CM gave it to him any way and We hold ourselves to a standard higher than that.

 

I called a dad's submission of the NRA shooting award BS. I was there and his son did not shoot that target, his son did not even hit the target. I did email the CM about it. he awarded it anyhow. The boy still can't shoot but brags about the shooting award.

 

Scouting is too often about parents ego's. My son will never receive an award he did not honestly earn.

[infoscouter]

Pack15 - be prepared. In Boy Scouts, a Scout *is* considered active for the purposes of advancement if he is registered as a current member of a unit. A particular level of attendance at meetings or camping events is specifically prohibited from being set by a unit as a criterion for advancement.

 

On another note. The same procedures apply for appealing Cub Scout advancement as the appeals process in Boy Scouting. Since there is no Board of Review, a written explanation isn't required for the Scout, but a parent may appeal to the District Advancement Committee on behalf of their son in the same manner as they may in a Boy Scout advancement question. It doesn't happen very often, but I personally know of a case where it almost did.