Fighting

[Basementdweller]

We have two scouts that seem to get into a lot of fights. they play excessively rough and have injured several scouts. They have both been counseled but seems to no good. How many fights are too many and what can I do?

[Bob White]

What instructions were you given in the BSA Youth Protection training for when one scout causes physical injury to another?

 

What instructions are you given in the Cub Scout Leader Handbook for a scout whose behavior interferes with the delivery of the program or causes a safety risk to himself or others?

 

 

[Lisabob]

Hi basement,

 

In general, there is no place for fighting in scouting. But you already knew that.

 

If I could ask a couple of clarifying questions - how old are these boys? What do you mean when you say they have been counseled? And where are their parents in these situations?

 

Since this is in the cub forum I am supposing you're talking about cub-aged boys, and that means a parent/guardian should be nearby in most cases to step in if things are getting out of hand. If this is the case then make sure you are clear with parents about what is or is not acceptable and how/when you would like them to intervene.

 

On the other hand if parents are just dropping them off at meetings then I think it is time to put an end to that and inform their parents that they need to stay with the boys. Further, that you can and will send boys home with parents if they are misbehaving and that if such behavior continues, that you will invite them to leave your den (you are the DL, right?).

 

This is based on an assumption that the matter is really quite minor (though still not acceptable behavior), more a matter of overly physical/rambunctious kids not actually meaning to harm others, and not boys squaring off for fist fights or something along those lines. This assumption could be wrong - I'm just basing it on what I've seen of cub-aged boy behavior. So please clarify and/or correct if I'm making faulty assumptions, so that we may give you better advice.

[Bob White]

Unless these are Tigers there is no reason, and no program recommendation that parents be at Den meetings.

[Basementdweller]

One is the Cub Masters grandson who is weeblo age. The other is bear age and a son of prominent member in the CO. Should the DE become involved?

 

Bloody noses and bruises for the most part. So how is that documented, I reported it to the Cub Master, I am sure that is as far as it has gone. I have witnessed the boys squaring off and intervened before the punches flew.

 

This group has told me to leave the pack on a couple of occasions, this may just do it.

 

Bob.....The information is not in the cub leader book, it is in the guide for safe scouting, But it fails to call out any procedure for documenting the events or what to do if pack leadership does not respond.

[Stosh]

"Unless these are Tigers there is no reason, and no program recommendation that parents be at Den meetings."

 

If the boys are fighting, there is a reason for their parents to be there to control their child and defend those they may harm. It is not the DL responsibility to referee fights.

 

While there is no recommendation that parents be there, then make it manditory for your den.

 

Every boy coming to cub scouts deserves to have a safe place to learn and grow. If other boys and parents cannot make it happen, then it's time to remove those things that threaten the safety of others.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

Basementdweller

Actually it IS in the Cub Scout Leader Book and in the Guide to Safe Scouting and in the Youth Protection Training and NONE of them say tell the cubmaster.

 

Perhaps you should review these resources and see what you were and are supposed to do. For instance...when a Scout phyically injures another scout your are REQUIRED to notify the Council Scout Executive!

 

 

[Lisabob]

Yeah ok, given additional details, I recommend you take your kid(s) and find a different pack that doesn't resemble fight night at the boxing ring. If Grandpa Cubmaster and Daddy CO aren't going to do anything about their little ruffians then don't expect that much of anything you do is likely to work. Bloody noses and squaring off? Enough's enough. (Actually I'd say these boys could be removed from the pack but reality is, it porbably won't happen with the CM and CO on their side).

 

Don't bother trying to get the DE involved to "handle" things. It isn't the DE's job to deal with unit-level membership or behavior matters and s/he will just push it back onto the CO anyway. If you had a Unit Commissioner you might try that person, but again, with the CM and CO on the other side, I doubt you're likely to meet with success.

 

------------------

As for parental attendance at den meetings - no, it isn't strictly required past Tigers, but I know many den leaders who expect some or all parents to be in the periphery at least, especially for the younger cubs. Not to mention that den meetings are frequently short enough that it makes no sense for parents to go do much else anyway. An hour (or so) isn't a long time.

 

There are a couple of additional questions that come to mind regarding whether den meetings are too unstructured, thus leading to too many opportunities for trouble, and why a Webelos and a Bear scout would be at den meetings together anyway? Look for a new pack where that wouldn't happen to begin with because dens meet separately.

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

Hopefully the CC is fully onboard with this. I have some concerns when you mention that one is the CM's grandson. Even more so that one is the son of a "prominant CO member." The first thing to do is to examine carefully what is precipitating this. Has there been a Cubmasters session with the parents attending? If so, the CC & CM may wish to require a parent to be present at any meeting or event. Otherwise, the CC and COR should consider removal from the program. Because of their position, this could be very sticky, however in the worst case you can always file reports. Another option would be to separate them into different dens if available.

[packsaddle]

Bloody noses and bruises are serious injuries...I suggest photos, close-up, of the blood, bruises, and spent bandages. Write this up for your own file with dates and names.

This behavior would not be tolerated by parents in this area and would be resolved quickly by them or the CO, regardless of BSA guidance and regulations. You might want to seriously consider the 'leaving' option. If such comments are the measure of support you get from the other parents, it is insufficient (to my mind) to invest more of your personal time and energy.

[Basementdweller]

Bob you are not being even remotely helpful. Feel free to add my name to your ignore list.

[Basementdweller]

For those who are interested and provided helpful information. I did contact the CC, COR, CM, Parents of the youths involved and the DE and emailed all of them the information on the incidents. I cited the Guide for safe scouting and asked to have the matter resolved.