Who would go for an Ettiquette Merit badge?

[alexiv]

At least once a year at a CoH I read a selection from the '57 scoutbook. Its called "Living the Scout Ideals" Gets our scouts thinking about the points of the law. This discussion as far a "courteous" goes got me thinking about a time when i read that particular passage, courteous, and got laughed at. The passage reads:

 

"Am I truly courteuos? Have I learned to do the many small courteousies that a gentleman does as a matter of habit-- Rising when a lady enters a room, giving my seat to an older person, making genrous use of the little words 'please' and 'thank you'?"

 

One of our more discourteous scouts just kind of chuckled at this idea. He stopped laughing when he noticed he was the only one. During the potluck I went to talk to him, he says "alex, no one does any of that anymore." I said yeah, just watch, the rest of this dinner, maybe not specificly the things that I said, but youll notice a lot of things you probably dont see at home at a scout dinner. I think I made an impression upon him. So my vote, no etiquette merit badge, but maybe we need added emphasis on the oath and law. Teach a point a month, seems like a system to me.

 

[kd6rxy]

Back from camp!

 

Because of this discussion, I was (overly) observant at mealtime at camp. For the most part, I saw implorable manners and not just from the scouts. Did some experimenting. I sat next to a kid (not from my troop) who folded a piece of roast beef (soaked in gravy), stabbed it with his fork and began to eat it(gravy dripping down the front o fo his shirt). As I was cutting mine ito bite size peices, I told him that what he was doing was rather rude and that he should cut it up first. What do you think he said? "This is how we do it at home!" I explained to him that it is not how we should do it in public and that it was bad manners. He said no more and began cutting it up. We never sat close together at anymore of the meals, but I did notice himpaying more attention to his manners (at least while I was looking). I was encouraged. But it was only a glimmer of hope when I looked around the dining hall to see so many with such bad manners. Then I looked at those who should be teaching them, and saw my answer in the manners displayed by the adults. This would be an uphill climb.

 

In the future, I will begin teaching these things in some manner. I will use many, if not all of the good ideas presented here. In speaking with my CC he related the story of when his sister came to visit when he was in the military and they were to attend a dinner at the majors house, he and his wife took his sister (18-19 yrs old) out that afternoon and shoveled in the ettiquette lessons so that her lack of proper manners would not be an embarrassment to her or any one else. Being her brother, he knew that her upbringing had not prepared her for this situation. She did fine.

 

He has suggested as sctomom did, have a dinner for both the scouts and their parents and have someone he knew come in to teach proper ettiquette to the boys. We will probably do this sometime in the future, I will let you know.

[Bob White]

Pardon me, point of order Mr or Madam Chairperson....

I agree that scouts need training in etiquette, (and if the unit leaders aren't setting the example then shame on the people that selected and approved them) however Merit Badges are to expose scouts to hobbies, careers and recreational activities. I would offer that etiquette is a skill and that including it as a skill requirement for a rank advancement would be more applicable.

 

Thank you,

Bob White

[kd6rxy]

Hey, Bob White,

 

Does the Family Life Merit Badges expose the boy to a hobby, career or recreational activity?

 

Seems to me it deals with life skills.

 

Haven't seen you post lately, hope everything is well with you.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

[ASM7]

Scoutmaster424

We were fortunate to derive a great program from the British military called scouting. Other programs have also been derived. One is the formal Dining-In. It's an old military tradition where officers dine and conduct various traditional ceremonies. This tradition has been adopted by US military also and I know that the Air Force Academy has information about it on their website. Our Scoutmaster is retired Army, who went to the AF Academy and then did some officer exchange program with the British and fought with them in Desert Storm. He brought the program to our troop and has now been a five year tradition. The rules are very strict but lots of fun is the end result. The scouts go through an etiquette class the week before the big event. Our dining-in is our annual Christmas banquet and also serves as Court of Honor. This is one way we make this hard to learn lesson fun. The UMW help with the cooking and the Girl Scouts help serve the meals. Just so you know, we pay them back by serving them at one of their functions. Our scouts not only learn the proper etiqette but how to serve as well.

[kd6rxy]

ASM7

 

Wonderful aproach. I will check out the website. Pretty much just the thing I was looking for.

 

Thanks for your post!

 

You wouldn't happen to have this ettiquette class written down where you could email it to me would you?(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

[Bob White]

Hi scoutmaster 424,

Good catch. I agree taht that seems to be an exception. That you for your concern, all is fine. The family and I took an extended vacation on our way to Philmont Training Center. Oklahoma City; Amarillo, Texas; Sante Fe, NM; Philmont and home again. We were gone 18 days. A great time was had by all.

 

Bob White

[kd6rxy]

Bob White

 

Glad to hear you are all well. What a vacation! Wow, 18 days. The last time I was off work that long, I was looking for a job!

 

By the way, I may not have caught that if we hadn't discussed it a bit earlier in the thread.

 

It just seems to me that if BSA thought it was important enough to create a merit badge for one thing (Family Life) that should be taught in the home (and obviously hasn't been), then maybe they should take a look at this one. I thnk we all agree that proper ettiquette is important, we all just have different ideas (and some darned good ones at that) about where it should be taught.

 

ASM7's troop has a good program established, I hope he can help me out so I can get one started in my troop. I wish more of us had some type of established part of our program on this subject that we could share.

[eagle90]

While I am all in favor of good manners and civility, I would think our boys would be put off by such a merit badge. In spite of our good intentions, that is NOT what they have joined scouting for.

 

I was recently at a High Adventure base talking to a female staff member who was a Venture Scout about the differences between Girl scouts and Boy Scouts. She was a girl Scout for a year, but quit and joined the BSA Venture group. The straw that brok her back was when she went to three meetings in a row where the topic was "How to apply make-up" and "How to do your nails" and "The right hairstyle for you". She said she joined for the outings and adventure and wasn't getting it thru the girl scouts.

 

I would think the same thing might happen with our boys.

[Rooster7]

eagle90,

 

You make good points. We definitely need to be careful in that regard. However, I have to reply by saying -

 

1) Merit badges are optional. I don't think anyone is saying we should make Etiquette an Eagle required badge.

 

2) While boys join to have fun (and we need to ensure that they get plenty of it), the purpose of Scouting is to build character.

 

In the end, I like ASM7's idea. A military style "dining out" where etiquette is emphasized, and a fun penalty is devised to make the point to ensure the boys enjoy the experience. My only reservation - How much guff will I get from committee members for making the suggestion? I don't think any is deserved. However, many folks want to ban anything that is even remotely associated with the military. I think this result is the byproduct of two occurrences - 1) A misinterpretation of the BSA policy, which bans military style discipline and drilling, and 2) a group of folks in Scouting who long for the sixties (when it appeared to be popular to despise the military). But I digressASM7 I like your idea. It sounds like your troop knows how to learn and have fun at the same time.

[kd6rxy]

It was suggested earlier that this could possibly be an eagle requirement, but that was all, no discussion.

 

And I agree that ASM7's troop has a good approach, but I disagree that it could or should be considered strictly "military."

 

Dinner parties and gatherings have been going on outside the military since who knows when and proper behavior and manners were expected of those participants just the same. The military just put it in writing and made this part of their program.

 

I see nothing wrong with taking this program from the military and reworking it to fit our situation by removing the particularly military aspects from it.

 

I don't think that a boy of any age would like to be looked down upon as the ill mannered heathen, in fact, with proper reinforcement from the adults (a pat on the back), I think the boy may even begin looking for the proper ettiquette to display in any given situation.

 

Once again, we have pretty much isolated this discussion to meal time and that is fine, but please remember that there are other times and places where proper ettiquette needs to be used.

 

Just spent a week in camp with 4 other troops. I don't mind the boys calling me by my first name. But I found it refreshing and I admired the boys who, when they knew my first name and that they could use it, still called me Mr. Germann. Their parents are doing a great job!

[Rooster7]

"Dining In" and "Dining Out" in the military, particularly in the Air Force, is done to build camaraderie and to emphasize proper military etiquette. At least, this is how I have seen in done in ROTC units. For these dining experiences, they have a set of rules that look something like this:

 

1) If any cadet or officer attending notices another cadet or officer violating military etiquette, they will call it to everyone else's attention by publicly addressing the head table in rhyme whereas the violator and the specific violation is noted.

2) The violator will be given the opportunity to defend himself by publicly addressing the head table in rhyme (i.e., "Roses are Red. Violets are Blue. The cadet next to Fred, doesn't know how to chew.")

3) If the violator is unwilling, or unsuccessful, to make his defense in rhyme, he must march to the head table. Square his shoulders. And drink one cup of the Grog*. Upon downing the drink, he will place the cup upside down on his head. The violator will then return to his seat.

4) If the violator successfully defends himself in rhyme, then the person calling attention to the violation must march to the head table. Square his shoulders. And drink one cup of the Grog*. Upon downing the drink, he will place the cup upside down on his head. The accuser will then return to his seat.

 

The Grog is a disgusting mixture of liquids and solids (often it is an alcoholic beverage, if all attending are over 21). It could contain just about anything. Just to set the record straight, military or not, I'm not in favor of the alcoholic Grog bowl. What is the purpose of dumping the cup on one's head? That's an out for those who are too squeamish (or principled) to drink the Grog. In other words, if you don't drink it, it gets dumped on your head. Okay, the above is the military version of "Dining In". I believe, "Dining Outs" are more formal. However, they often still have a Grog bowl.

 

Very often the rules are bent to include phantom transgressions and just plain silliness. For example, one cadet might accuse another cadet of a violation because "he's just plain ugly." Bare in mind, these are young men (not boys) and the purpose is to instill a sense of familiarity and camaraderie while emphasizing proper etiquette (or vice versa depending on one's perspective).

 

This is how I envision something like this being incorporated in a Scouting venue. First, as is true for the military version, everyone is advised about the event beforehand. No one is surprised by the unusual "rules" and/or consequences. The event is advertised as a fun/silly event with the goal of teaching proper etiquette. If someone does not want to participate, they can opt out and not attend. Two, I would make the setting an outdoor picnic. Three, I would modify the rules. Something along the order of this:

 

1) If any Scout or Scouter attending notices another Scout or Scouter violating Scouting etiquette and/or proper table manners, they will call it to everyone else's attention by publicly addressing the head table in rhyme whereas the violator and the specific violation is noted.

2) The violator will be given the opportunity to defend himself by publicly addressing the head table in rhyme.

3) If the violator is unwilling, or unsuccessful, to make his defense in rhyme, he must march to the middle of field. Square his shoulders and face the "Water Balloon Brigade". From a distance of 15 feet, the brigade will launch one round of water balloons. The violator will then return to his seat.

4) If the violator successfully defends himself in rhyme, then the person calling attention to the violation must march to the middle of field. Square his shoulders and face the "Water Balloon Brigade". From a distance of 15 feet, the brigade will launch one round of water balloons. The accuser will then return to his seat.

 

I don't know if ASM7's event is anything like this. Nevertheless, I think this would be a fun learning experience for the boys.

[akela]

I am chiming in a little late on this thread, but would love to give my two cents worth. I would love to see and ettiquette merit badge. These young men I deal with don't know what the word even means. They are not getting the information at home. Most are single parent families, or one parent works away from home and is only there on weekends.

 

Example: One boy 15 at summer camp, stood at the PBJ table and made himself a sandwich. did not have his plate with him so proceeded to eat his PBJ over the table where he had made it rather than returning to his table. When we asked why he did that, and that he had not used proper manners, his reply was that he was still hungry when he had made the first sandwich and was going to make another, so he just stayed there to eat the first one, so he did not have to get up twice.

 

Plus we live in redneck country, so spitting under the dinning fly is the most nerving one I get. I have instructed the boys that this is where we eat, so we don't spit.

 

I am all for the merit badge.

 

Cheryl

[ASM7]

Scoutmaster424

i hope you were able to get to the AF Academy website. Just some other notes. To clear up the terminology, the Dining-In only involves members of the unit. The Dining-Out has outside guests. Ours is usually a Dining-Out, to incompass a Court of Honor where all of the families and other guests are invited. Usually we have a speaker from the council to talk about scout history or experiences. In contrast to what has been mentioned earlier, our head table is addressed personally only after getting permission from Mr. Vice, who sits at the back of the room. Mr. Vice is the vessel from which all transactions are made. It gets really funny watching Mr. Vice and all he has to do. Usually, Mr. President requests Mr. Vice to taste test the course being served for approval before anyone else can eat it. Our scouts are responsible for preparing the grog which is made up of supposed ingredients from every place that we have been during the year. ie. mud from a rainy campout or water wrinched from a wet sock, river water. Use food coloring and be real inventive. The guests really crack up over the grog. Scouts use the dining-out for showing off their individual gifts and are expected to bring an instrument they play or poetry they have written.When breaking an etiqette rule, scouts have an opportunity to get up and display their art through a request from Mr. President. Scouts are also asked to bring a roll of pennies for the purpose of fines. Or they may take a drink from the grog. Sometimes a scout will get fined for ratting on another scout. We all have a great time. Make sure the rules of the Dining-out/in are read at the commencement of the meeting. We only use the meeting before the dining-out to refresh our etiqutte skills with help from a member of the Methodist Women. She sets up a sample place setting where they learn the names of the different pieces. We felt since for most of the year we operate in an outdoor setting that this serves a great purpose and we don't dwell on it the rest of the year. We find our scouts using these skills during the rest of the year.

[kd6rxy]

ASM7,

 

Thanks, I did get to the website. I brought up the idea at the TC meeting and they thought it was a great idea. The CC even said he knew a couple of ladies (and gentlemen) that would be willing to help us out with this.

 

Rooster7,

 

I also like your rewrite of the rules too. I have not had the time yet to put my imagination to it, but I think there are a lot of good ideas coming out of this.