Who would go for an Ettiquette Merit badge?

[SagerScout]

At Camp Karankawa, meals are served family style with two scouts acting as table waiters for each table of 10. The food is on platters and all scouts wait until to sit after the grace is said. Then "please pass" and "thank you" are heard all over the dining hall.

 

A new troop showed up mid-week and I was horrified to see the leaders begin serving themselves and the troop while standing up, DURING grace...with examples like that I'm not sure how to proceed with instruction. Start with the adults going back to Etiquette 101? Like, when in Rome, at least wait to see what the Romans do?

 

Four of the kids in this troop were also identified as the ones running off the waterfront dock just after the lunch hour. The camp's powerboat had been cut loose and was drifting across the cove. No harm done, but a bad example. The ID was quite good - the scout that saw the boys was quite positive "One had a KISS t-shirt and earring, another had a Cowboys' cap." There weren't many KISS t-shirts and earrings at camp. We had concluded that they were interlopers from the nearby park until they showed up at dinner. We told camp staff, I don't know what if anything they did.

 

Julia

[yaworski]

" I asked a parent about what merit badges his

son was going to work on and his response was that he didn't know and didn't care, he was getting a

weeks vacation out of it. What a great parent. "

 

In days of yore, parents didn't micromanage their kids' lives and kids grew up to be respectful, polite and productive. Now parents are overly involved with everything that has to do with the kids and kids are rude and can't do anything for themselves.

 

As smart as today's kids are supposed to be today, I don't see it. I don't see kids saying, "I want to get the radio merit badge" and running with it. What I do see is mom or dad deciding that junior should get the radio merit badge and pushing them along the way.

 

Of course, the problem could be that today's scouts are much younger than those of yesterday. Someone recently wrote about an 11 year old Star Scout. Heck, when I was a kid, you couldn't join Boy Scouts until you were 12.

 

Maybe if the parents were less concerned, the kids could progress at their own pace and everyone would be happier.

 

 

[kd6rxy]

yaworski

 

I guess I wasn't so clear.

 

The parent made it clear that he wanted the kid gone for the week, he didn't care to do what and he obviously wasn't concerned about who with. But, If you can't trust the boy scouts...

 

He just plain acted as if he did not care about his son.

 

Anyway, I think people get concern and guiding confused with "overly involved" and "pushing" thier kids.

 

I personally want my kids to become independant at everything. I want to be able to not worry that they know what is expected as far as behavior and proper manners and are capable of doing the right thing.

 

And I don't think passing on my values to them is micromanaging thier lives either.

 

In the days of yore, parents didn't have electronic babysitters and did spend time with thier children doing exactly the same thing, instilling in them the family values.

 

I learned quite a while ago that a civilized educated man can easily act as a barbarian. A barbarian, however, cannot act as a civilized educated man. I think it was in an episode of the original Star Trek.

 

My point has been and still is, it is not the boys fault they have no manners. The fault is in the parents tht do not teach their children manners.

 

I am positive if parents were any less concerned about this issue, that the boys will not turn progrees in this subject, they would just be happy slobs.

[FScouter]

"Mirror, Mirror". Kirk tries to make a deal with the Halkans for dilithium crystals. Then the ion storm hits ...

[kd6rxy]

Fscouter

 

Glad I'm not the only one!

[FScouter]

It is sad, but many parents today cannot teach etiquette to their children because they did not learn any etiquette from their own parents. Scouting is a way to learn a few things that you dont have an opportunity to learn at home or at school. If the Scoutmaster can pass on a few tips about etiquette to the boys, so much the better for them.

 

Mr. Spocks observation, with a bit of sarcasm: It was far easier for you as civilized men to behave a barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men. They were brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilized, treacherous; in every way splendid examples of homo sapiens; the very flower of humanity.

 

[kd6rxy]

You, and Mr Spock, said a mouthful!

 

(That was one of my favorite episodes. I haven't seen it in years!)

 

[buffalo2]

Sadly, etiquette is not one of those things that we can teach our children, but something that they absorb from every part of their environment...

 

Now back to Mr Spock et al.

[Rooster7]

buffalo2,

 

I'm not sure I agree. Etiquette can be, and should be taught by one's parents. However, if you mean to say, "We cannot make our children follow good etiquette. They must learn to appreciate the value of good manners so that they want to follow it." Then yes, I agree with that thought.

 

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it." This is a sad truth.

[NJCubScouter]

OK, scoutmaster424 and FScouter, good point based on Star Trek "Mirror, Mirror" but I think a bit of further explanation is appropriate for those who have never seen the episode, or don't remember it, or never watched Star Trek, or think there's something wrong with the 3 of us that we do remember it. I think your point does relate to the topic at hand.

 

Remember this is science fiction, and I am putting the really fictional stuff in quotes.

 

Basically you have the captain and three other members of the Starship Enterprise crew who are "beaming" (i.e. using the "transporter") to return from a planet to the ship, when an "ion storm" occurs. (Visually it is like lightning hitting the ship, which does not actually happen in space.) It turns out that in a "parallel universe," the same 4 people were beaming back to the ship at the same time, and the ship was hit by an ion storm. This caused the two sets of people to be exchanged from one universe into the other.

 

The point is, in "our" universe, the Enterprise crew are peace-loving explorers who only fight when attacked (though Captain Kirk is sometimes a bit trigger-happy), and are part of a "Federation" established for purposes of scientific exploration, sharing of knowledge, peaceful trade, defense against the "bad guys," truth, liberty and justice for all, etc. However, in the parallel universe the "Federation" has become the "Empire," which subjugates weaker planets, expands through use use of force, and acquires resources through intimidation and violence. Crew members move up in rank by assassinating their superiors, the ship is like a police state and the senior officers have squads of henchmen to advance their personal ambitions. "Vulcans", known and respected in "our" universe for their scientific achievement and pacifism, are known and feared in the parallel universe for their exceptional brutality (though they are "logical" in both.)

 

The real point is, once this "exchange" has occurred, the "good" guys manage to pass for their "evil" counterparts for almost the entire episode, though the "evil" Vulcan Mr. Spock (you know he's evil because he has a beard, and a pointy one that that, to go along with his pointy ears) eventually learns of the switch and is convinced by Kirk to "do the right thing" and help put everybody back where they belong. However, the "evil" versions of Kirk etc. are like fish out of water on the "good" ship, and when they are first seen, they have already been slapped in the brig by the "good" Spock. It is implied that upon reaching the "good" ship, the "evil" versions immediately started acting like ruthless barbarians and Spock knew right away that these weren't his ship-mates. (The "bad guys" apparently never figure out or accept that they are in the wrong place. The last you see of the evil Kirk, he is loudly and arrogantly offering the good Spock a bribe to restore him to "his" command, figuring that Spock has just taken an opportunity to seize control, as he would have back in the other universe.)

 

I guess another point (which also relates to etiquette) is that in the evil universe, the crew's uniforms look more like 23rd-century pirate uniforms and shall we say, put greater emphasis on the wearer's physical attributes (meaning among other things that the producers took the opportunity to display even more of Lt. Uhura's skin than usual). The more sedate uniforms of "our" universe do look a little odd on the "evil" ship, though I think the "good guys" do change clothes when they get the chance. The pirate outfits, however, are clearly part of what drew immediate attention on the "good ship," causing the "good" Spock to take command and imprison the misplaced rogues.

 

All of this leads to Spock's pointe, quoted by FScouter: basically, the civilized folks could act like barbarians and "blend in," but the barbarians could only act like barbarians. In the present thread, I think the best point to make from this is that in order to act civilized, you first need the knowledge of what you are supposed to do. You can then either apply it, or you can choose to imitate the rude behavior of others. But if you don't have the knowledge in the first place, it is tough to do what is right.

 

And yes, I do have "Mirror Mirror" on tape (a bought one, not off the tv like some of the other episodes), my family gave it to me for my birthday once because it is one of my favorites from the original show. It is worth noting that the "parallel universe" idea was followed up in the later Star Trek series "Deep Space Nine," which had about 4 or 5 episodes in which people were going back and/or forth, and dealt in part with how the events shown in the old series impacted the development of the parallel universe. But that's way beyond our syllabus for today, class.

 

Oh, was there a question about an Etiquette Merit Badge somewhere in this thread? I don't think it's such a good idea. I agree with Quixote (which doesn't happen very often, so take notes), that courtesy and etiquette should be covered under parts of the program that already exist. Perhaps "courtesy" in the Scout Law needs to be given a little bit more content, maybe a couple more pages in the Handbook about how people are supposed to act in polite society, though I think which fork to use and where to put the napkin are going a bit far. Just like you don't learn to perform surgery in the First Aid Merit Badge, and you don't build an actual reactor in the Nuclear Power badge (or whatever it's called), some of the finer points of how to act in a formal dinner may be beyond the scope of Scouting. You also get into the problem that social customs do change over time, some of the customs between men and women are not what they once were (and I do NOT mean to start a debate over whether they should be), and there is not universal agreement even among etiquette authorities about some of the finer points. I don't know that there is a formal place in Scouting for that.

 

On the other hand, what bodily noises are acceptable, and where a man's or boy's hands should be and not be when in the presence of others, though something Scouting should not have to teach, is something that perhaps could be dealt with in a subtle (and possibly humorous) way in the handbook. How about something like this, "sometimes we all experience physical discomfort, itching, pain or "fullness" in our digestive systems etc. but we need to take care of these things in a private place and not where our actions might offend or disturb others." Maybe that's too subtle (and I know it wasn't humorous). I just don't think the idea of a merit badge on this sounds very good.

[kd6rxy]

NJCubScouter

 

Thanks for going into it all. I don't know it well enough, I just remember the lesson involved. I am 40 now, so my parents did such a good job instilling the necessity for using proper ettiquette in me that I remember that from such a young age.

 

I don't know what the accepted definition of a formal is, but the first formal ocaasion (other than maybe a wedding)in a scouts life is most likely going to be the Prom (Do you know the ettiquette which pertains to which style tux he should or should not wear?).

 

Mike Long brought up the Family Life Merit Badge and Eagle required at that!

 

Family life is also something we as parents should be teaching our children at home, on our own. Why then did the BSA create that one? I suppose it was because it was an important enough life skill that the BSA decided to take up where the parents were obviously lacking. And they require every boy aspiring to be an Eagle to take this merit badge. If we as parents were to teach our children about family from the beginning, the merit badge should be a breeze for them.

 

We've whipped the "manners at meals" example to a froth (Eating is a necessetiy that we all must do, so it seems like the appropriate example), but there are many other areas to be concerned with - Manners as neighbors, at church, in groups, in school, in hospitals, at funerals, weddings, dances, meeting dignitaries, and important people, on the road (isn't the recommended defense against road rage just simply having manners?)

 

I do not disagree with Quixote's ideas either. He's given some good ones, most of you have.

 

But no one has answered my one pointed question posted right after Quixote's post. How many of us teach ettiquette as part of teaching the point of the scout law "A scout is courteous?"

 

I do not. And until Quixote posted, I hadn't thought about it. But beleive me, I will think about it from now on.

 

But a wider question may be, how many of us teach the broader scope of the scout oath and law?

 

Or do we just say, "Now Johnny, do you understand what it means to be courteous?" And he replies, "Yea, it means to say please and thank you and yes ma'am, no ma'am." "Okay, He's got it!"

 

buffalo2 - I don't agree with what you said either. But if Rooster7 is correct, then maybe.

 

Read some of my examples I've posted. The man I used to work for worked on oil rigs for quite a few years before coming home to join Dads business. An environment where it was more than likely acceptable if not necessary to be a bit on the "barbaric" side. But he continues his deplorable habits even in the environment of those of us who tried to use the most basic of manners.

 

My kids lives with their mother and she has deplorable manners (especially when it comes to eating) and my son is absorbing this from his environment. I feel that if left as you say (maybe not as you mean as Rooster7 surmized) my kids will be eating from the pig trough in no time! Completely Unacceptable!(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

[acco40]

Irony alert!! A poster talks about the world going to the proverbial hell in a handbasket because of the "electronic baby sitter" and then we get a multiple poster diatribe about a TV show!! I love it.

 

Television has good and bad. It is not inherently evil. Tell teenage boys that girls like a man with good manners and believe me, their manners improve markedly!

 

For the record, I whole heartedly agree with jcquillan and Ed, lead by example.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[kd6rxy]

IT WAS ME! IT WAS ME!

Good Obeservation Acco40!

 

My parents chose what I watched way back when (it was what they wanted to watch, we only had one television then). And we watched television as a family usually in the evening after dark. In the daylight, I had things to do!

 

I wasn't put in front of the box just anytime to get me out of their way.

 

I may even be guilty of using it at times with my own children.

 

I was thinking more of the video games, etc.

 

But the good and evil of television though is left to another thread I think.

 

Leading by example is good. Can't argue with that.

 

But you have to get that example in front of the kids and get them to pay attention. Do they really watch how you eat and get it that they should do what you do? How do they know when they see an example of proper ettiquette if they don't know first that it was proper ettiquette? For instance, if they have never been taught the proper way to hold a knife and fork, will they recognize that you are doing it properly, right in front of their eyes? I'm not sure.

 

Anyway, I must say that this has been a great debate. This is it for me until Monday, July 29 at 8:00 AM. (Sigh of releif! Get this guy outta here for a while!).

 

But first a bit of a recap.

 

We have those that want to lead by example and seemingly forget about it otherwise.

 

We should teach this stuff in several areas of the program, like when it comes under the scout oath and law (But no one has posted that they actually teach anythng like this, at least right now anyway, when they teach those aspects of scouting.)or in different merit badges.

 

We have those who think it might be a good idea to have a merit badge.

 

We have a little of "Everything I need to know about life I learned from Star Trek."

 

And the one thing I do see, is that we all seem to agree about the need to teach some of these things in our scouting program.

 

 

[Mike Long]

I teach etiquette when I see a lack of it.

 

Not as a formal part of the troop program but as the opprotunity presents itself. And yes I do it under the auspices of "A Scout is Courteous"

[KoreaScouter]

Interesting thread; I had completely forgotten about that Star Trek episode until you reminded me of it.

 

One man's vote: I don't think we need an Etiquette MB; what's the standard to use in order to devise the requirements?, and I think there's enough character-content in the program that if it's presented, it will either sink in or it won't...and if it won't from the program content, it won't from a MB either. Moreover, if there is to be an Etiquette MB, and it's not Eagle-required, how many takers will you get?

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about poor manners at age 11...at age 18, another matter. This stuff is internalized in small amounts over a long period of time, like swallowing saliva. Here's a case in point. My troop when I was a Scout had three older Scouts, all brothers, whose dad was the SM. My dad died when I was four years old. My primary example of how a dad interacts with adolescent boys was my SM and his sons. It wasn't a conscious or deliberate study on my part back then, and certainly wasn't my SM's intent to show a fatherless boy how a father interacts with his sons, but that was the unintended result.

 

I think if you could fast-forward 10 or 15 years in your Scouts' lives, you'd see that other skills crept into their "tool boxes" unwittingly, including courteous behavior (if we model it consistently...)

 

KS