ryetye Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I had two boys, myself as dl and wife as cc. I found out the tigers were picking up trash along a 45 mph road at dusk with no reflective vest Nor were Parents aware of this. Even prisoners are required by state lawto wear reflective clothing. I've been having problems in the pack as all the other leaders kinda outcast us because my boys go to a different school. I tried calling local council several times, and am told they will call me back.To this day i have not received a call back. I have several issuses at this point due to kids have not received popcorn prizes yet.(checks were missplaced and found 6 months later some expired.)Graduation was cancelled 1 Hour beforehand the first time and the night before on the second. Cm has webelos in a room with the door shut at all meetings with out another adult. People were reregistered that haven't been to ameeting since the second one. CC application was turned in back in january to the cm and turned into council the end of may. We just left the pack because of all the issuses. Any advice on where to turn at this point I honestly dont think local cancel cares until someone gets hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Well, it should be the concern of the CC :-) but that moment has passed. Talk to the District Commissioner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I don't understand how parents of Tigers could not be aware of what their Tiger children were doing, since the Tiger program *requires* parental attendance with the child. Beyond that, join another pack that has their act together. Don't waste your time waiting for council to call you back. The council neither owns nor runs individual units. Chances are good that the council folks are aware that the unit you were part of was doing a poor job, but realistically there isn't a lot council can or will do about that, except perhaps to direct you to a different unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Your wife has resigned as CC and you stated back in May you were looking for a new Pack. You state here you have now left the Pack. As CC, your wife could have worked with the Charter Organization and the Unit Commissioner to correct the issues. However, she resigned and the Charter Organization seems not to have a problem with the program or the Leaders of its Pack. There is nothing more for you to do but to move on. Hopefully your new Pack will be run better. BTW - You said ... "Cm has webelos in a room with the door shut at all meetings with out another adult." I take this to mean the CM is also the Webelos Den Leader, and he has his Webelos den meetings in a room with the door shut and no other adults at the meeting. Actually - As long as he has more than one Webelos in the room with him is not breaking any BSA Youth Protection rules. Although 2-deep leadership is a very good practice to follow at all times, the BSA rule is for outings, not specifically for den meetings. Den meetings would fall under the no one-on-one contact rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pack212Scouter Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 This pack seems to have many issues. The best that you can do at this point is to get the CO and the DE together, but it doesn't sound like that will happen. As for some of these issues... "I found out the tigers were picking up trash along a 45 mph road at dusk with no reflective vest Nor were Parents aware of this." The Tiger den is not being run properly then. All Tigers should have a parental partner with them. "I've been having problems in the pack as all the other leaders kinda outcast us because my boys go to a different school." Sadly, sounds like an "old boys club" type of pack. "I have several issuses at this point due to kids have not received popcorn prizes yet.(checks were missplaced and found 6 months later some expired.)Graduation was cancelled 1 Hour beforehand the first time and the night before on the second." Poor management here. "Cm has webelos in a room with the door shut at all meetings with out another adult." Not an issue. Although two-deep is always prefered, that is for outings. No one-on-one applies here and that was adheared to. "People were reregistered that haven't been to ameeting since the second one. CC application was turned in back in january to the cm and turned into council the end of may." Poor management of resources here. There is not really any rule against that, although it costs the Pack extra money. Either they don't care or are trying to fudge numbers for some reason. Probably just don't care. Many Packs wind up with boys on the books that shouldn't be there. "We just left the pack because of all the issuses. Any advice on where to turn at this point I honestly dont think local cancel cares until someone gets hurt." Probably your best decision. If you approached the Pack and the CO with these concerns and they were unwilling to discuss them, then find another Pack that your boys can grow in and that you mesh with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghermanno Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Pack212Scouter, I agree with most of what you said but I respectfully disagree with ""Cm has webelos in a room with the door shut at all meetings with out another adult." Not an issue. Although two-deep is always prefered, that is for outings. No one-on-one applies here and that was adheared to." BSA policy concerning Cubs states "The den leader and assistant den leader (or another adult) attend all den meetings with the Cub Scouts. (At least two adults must be present at all meetings.) Tiger Cub den meetings are also attended by each Tiger Cub's adult partner. Wolf, Bear, and Webelos den meetings are often attended by a den chief, a Boy Scout or Venturer who assists the adult leaders. An activity badge counselor who has been asked to help with a specific badge may also attend a Webelos den meeting. Sometimes, a parent, guardian, or other family member might be asked to help at a specific meeting, but family members do not normally attend Wolf, Bear, or Webelos den meetings." Two deep leadership is the minimum at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 This is an example of BSA being inconsistent, and people not knowing actual policies. The quote ghermanno printed is from the BSA National Web site. It is on the page describing Cub Scout Den meetings, under the paragraph titled Attendence. This is the ONLY place this can be found. In other BSA publications, including Youth Protection Training and the Guide to Safe Scouting, the BSA policy is stated as the following - "Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are REQUIRED ON ALL TRIPS AND OUTINGS. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities." "No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths." The emphasis in the 2-deep quote is mine. So, while 2-deep leadership is a wise thing to do at all activities, is is only REQUIRED, per BSA policy, on trips and outings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pack212Scouter Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 BSA inconsistance? Say it isn't so! I understand what you are saying Ghermanno, but that quote is from how meetings should be run. Meetings should be done with two leaders, heck we try to have three in a Den so that if someone is sick or can't come or moves, we have two trained leaders still there, but if somethig happens, it can be run with one. Obviously the two leader system should be restored as soon as possible. As ScoutNut said, I was referring to Youth Protection, and GSS policies which seemed to be what Ryetye was concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 If you have found the new pack, make it a great pack and try not to think about the previous one. The part about roadside cleanup at dusk without safety gear was all I needed to hear. If you're gone already, focus on your son. You've already done as much as you can do for the council. Try to put the past experience behind you and look to a better future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Training, Training, Training The CC was responsible for most of the issues. (since when does the CC turn adult applications over the the Cubmaster????) There should have been two adults at the den meeting and if there weren't then the CC should have taken action. You will not like to read this but, why are you surprised that the council did nothing if the Committee chair did nothing? Based on your concern I doubt it was that she didn't care, but rather that she did not understand that addressing these issues was her job not the council's. It shows a lack of training. Even if she had just read the Cub Leader Handbook regarding her role in the pack she would (I hope) had taken different action than she did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryetye Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 The cc paper work was just turned in in the begining of june according to our roster. The old cc was still listed until that point. The paper work was misplaced along with the check since 1-10-08 deposited 6-2 -08 It was written out of my account from my wife. So council told us she was not cc and had no say in any matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 "CC application was turned in back in january to the cm and turned into council the end of may." I am not sure you understand. Processing paperwork on adult registrations is not the cubmaster's job. It is the committee's, for which the committee chair is responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Was the "old" CC still acting as CC from 1/10/08 until 6/02/08? If so the paperwork should have gone to him/her. The Charter Organization Representative, or the Head of the Charter Organization, are the ones ultimately responsible for approving new unit leaders. The Cubmaster does NOT figure into this at all, and should not have had the application. Also, if the paperwork was lost, and the check never cashed, why not simply cancel the check, fill out a new application, write out a new check and give it to the COR (NOT the CM) for approval and transmittal to council. Perhaps your wife was not supposed to start her job as CC until June when the Pack re-chartered? If so, then the "old" CC was the one who should have been addressing the problems. Why did that not happen? However, you are now no longer responsible for that Pack in any way, shape, or form. Move on to your new Pack and concentrate on it and your boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryetye Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 The old cc moved to another state back in december as far as charter org. goes I dont really think they care if they have cub scouts or not considering they told us we could use the fellowship hall for graduation, we got there to set up and there was a wedding rehearsal dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 "I dont really think they care if they have cub scouts or not considering they told us we could use the fellowship hall for graduation, we got there to set up and there was a wedding rehearsal dinner." This does not necessarily mean that the Charter Organization does not "care if they have cub scouts or not". Mostly it means that there is a problem with communication between the CO and it's Pack and between different people within the CO. We schedule our Pack dates on the Parish Calender in June for the upcoming school year. The Parish got a new Secretary and the school got a new Principal. We ended up with a school dance scheduled on the evening of our Pack Haunted House Foodraiser. This was a nasty surprise when the flier went home from the school 2 weeks before! Needless to say our CC & CM had to do some fast foot work to head this off. The school dance was re-scheduled. These things happen. Things don't get put on the calendar that should be there, and things get put on that should not be there. That's life and something a unit's leadership has to be vigilant to keep an eye out for. As I said before, this is all water under the Scouting bridge. Make your new Pack experience a great one. Oh, and get trained, and bring other adults with you to get trained too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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