Archery & BB

[allscouting]

I have run the BB and archery ranges for several of my council's Day camps and other events for a long time. And I have had leaders ask about running their own ranges-some have no clue on why you need aa large area for a range. I think that if it is a certified range the scouts should be able to earn the belt loops and pins. (Even though i know certain leaders that have said their Packs have earned the pin on my range-when I told them they didn't-was told who cares they're getting it anyway.

[John-in-KC]

Gotta love the integrity of some parents...

 

Sigh.

[Herms]

Great question ManyHats! I think it is silly, liability included, that you cannot have a certification program for Packs to conduct their own range program. To be honest my range would be tougher than what I've seen them produce at least 12 different Day Camps!

 

One of the big dangers with weapons is when people (kids especially) are not familiar with, or comfortable with a weapon. Day Camp is the only time most of these kids ever expierence using a weapon (and yes a BB gun or 15 pound bow is a weapon!) If Packs could conduct their own shoots (with INTENSIVE training programs for rangemasters) the boys could shoot more and get more comfortable (and thus safer) with a weapon.

 

My 2 cents.

[Gold Winger]

"(and yes a BB gun or 15 pound bow is a weapon!)"

 

Wah! Wah! Wah!

 

So is a baseball bat, pipe wrench or a pencil.

[Herms]

Gold Winger

 

I've read your posts and you seem like a smart guy. Wah? Wah?

 

Does a baseball bat get more dangerous as it gets bigger (BB gun to .270)???? A pipewrench (15 pound bow to 85 pound compound)??? If you don't teach kids to respect a smaller weapon will they respect a larger one?

 

Wah! Wah! attitudes about small weapons by adult leaders are what can get a kid killed! Cub Scout, 1976, Durango, CO killed by a 15 pound bow!!!!!!!

[allscouting]

Several years ago I was running the archery range at Cub Scout Day camp. I had 4 boys shooting. They finished, put the bows down, and went to retreive the arrows-3 of the 4 over shot the targets. i was keeping an eye on them when I turned to have a parent of the 4th on the range picking up a bow and reaching for an arrow to show the son how to shoot. i kicked him off the range, and it took awhile to get him to leave. He could have injured the other children.

[Gold Winger]

Weapons! Weapons! Weapons! Let's all run around and wave our hands in the air!!!

 

A BB gun isn't a firearm so comparing it to a .270 isn't valid. However, outside of warfare more people have been killed with the .22 LR than any other caliber. That still doesn't change the fact that on a range, shooting paper targets it is no more of a weapon than a baseball bat is during a baseball game.

 

Weapon or not, poor attitudes about safety are what get people hurt or killed. Have you seen what happens when someone is "warming up" outside of the on deck circle and clocks a teammate with his bat? That can be as deadly as your moron with the bow.

 

How about the idiot that decides to chase his buddy with a chain saw?

 

What about the dimbulb that decides to re-energize a tagged out circuit and fries a co-worker? Does that make the circuit a weapon?

 

Stupidity doesn't make the implement a weapon.

 

I've been a competitive shooter for over 30 years, a shooting instructor for about 20 of those and an FFL for fifteen years. The firearm in my bullseye box is simply a gun. The gun in my nightstand is a weapon.

[ManyHats]

You guys have really got off subject. The point was not whether a bow and a bb gun were weapons. The point is if a member of BSA is certified to instruct archery or bb, why can't they instruct it at any time and not just at council events? Is the training not good enough that you trust them to setup a proper range?

The other point was we have to trust the parents when they sign off that Johnny did the requirements for the baseball belt loop. Why would archery and bb be different?

[T&C44]

I've run ranges before for several years. Both archery and bb. I've found several things that work for me... I recruit older scouts 15 and up to work as assistants. I try really hard to keep the ratio at 1 assistant per bow and 1 assistant for every 2 bb rifles at the maximum. I use an adult as RO for each range. I have a training of about 1 hour before camp for my range staff. Each shooter is coached by an assistant for every shot with a bow. All bb rifles are shot from the prone position only (unless physically unable to perform, then allowances are made). Special needs kids are coached by me or my wife almost exclusively. I'm sort of chapped at times by the council event rule but I understand their issues, so I don't complain. Even though I'm military, I never call the bb rifles a WEAPON. Even though they could be used to inflict damage or wounds I call them a "bb rifle". I call my M-16 and my M-9 a "weapon". My personal firearms are "guns". Ranges are easy... just takes a logical approach. NDCLS course went over how to run a range but had NOTHING on how to TEACH shooting in either discipline. Now it looks like I get to teach that module at the next course.

 

Gotta go,

T&C44

[Lisabob]

I'm not sure I understand why a certified intructional facility is not sufficient in the BSA's eyes. We have a couple of local ranges around here that produce olympic-class athletes in shooting sports. They have extensive junior programs for the younger kids. Why a pack or den couldn't go there and learn from them (within BSA guidelines), is a bit mystifying to me.

 

That said, I'm not sure I'd want to see individual packs get certified to maintain a range. Turn over in the adult leadership is very high in many packs, and the percentage of even basic-trained Cub leaders tends to be fairly low (typically in the 20-30% range). My worry would be that while a pack might have competent, BSA-certified instructors at one point, those folks would move on and some new leaders without even basic leader training would blithely continue the pack's shooting sports program anyway because "we always do archery/BB in May" or something like that. That's where accidents are more likely to occur.

 

ETA: I served as an archery range master for a few years at our cub day camp. Most fun position in camp, in my view! The training I got from BSA wasn't wonderful. It did cover the basics of how to safely run an archery range, but as someone without extensive experience in shooting sports, it didn't do much to help me learn how to teach cubs to shoot. On the other hand what did help me there, was that I met people at that training who had a lot of expertise, and they kindly shared their knowledge with me after and outside of the training when we all met at the range for some informal practice. So I would say the BSA training was a mixed bag - it provided me with basic knowledge of running a range and it provided me with the opportunity to make further contacts and learn more.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

Reading the language in the G2SS, I'd bet a steak dinner at the Golden Ox BSA lost or settled a lawsuit involving Cub Scouts, a range, and an injury/fatality. BSA follow-on response was to shut down Cub Scout shooting sports at non-BSA facilities not staffed by BSA trained folk.

 

The cynic in me thinks that part of the reason BSA trains us is to be able to repudiate our actions ... when we are just plain grossly negligent in our actions as leaders.

[Docrwm]

I'm trained as a BB & Archery instructor for BSA. One of the things I haven't seen mentioned is the issue of downplaying the entire weapons training of BSA for political reasons. There are many out there with no love of Boy Scouting. They look for reasons to put Scouting into a bad light. Maximizing control of when those wearing BSA uniforms will be involved in learning and using weapons (be they training weapons or whatever, I'll not quibble on that point) makes sense in the kind of environment where people are looking to make trouble AND the insurers are wanting every i dotted and every t crossed. Just my opinions.

[SSScout]

Archery : history : skill : arrangements.

 

Check out:

 

 

http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/badminton/

 

YiS