Archery & BB

[ManyHats]

What's your take on archery and bb belt loops can only be acheived at council events?

Why can't a BSA certified individual conduct archery or bb instruction outside of council.

I understand the risk if someone isn't trained, but there is no incentive to be trained.

[Pack212Scouter]

I believe that only bb & archery shooting sports are to be conducted at Council events because of liability reasons. They want to have control of the range and they want to make sure that any it is being run by individuals with proper rangemaster training.

 

There are many oppotunuties to earn these in our council. Day Camps in the summer, Resident Camps in the summer, Cub-O-Ree in the Fall, Scout-O-Rama in the Spring. Additionally, I believe that some councils will allow certified rangemasters to organize a shooting event if a council run or approved property is available and if it is open to everyone.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[DanKroh]

Here's what I would propose for archery, that the rule *should* be, the archery belt loop and pin can only be earned at a BSA council event, or at a range run by a NAA certified instructor.

 

I don't know if there is a corresponding national certification program for BBs, but if there is, then similar wording for BBs.

 

Now this is a prime example of a situation that doesn't make sense. My younger son, currently a Bear, shoots archery on a regular basis at a commercially run range near our house. He participates in the Junior Olympic Archery Development program, and has shot in national competitions. But he can't earn the beltloop and pin unless he shoots at a Council sponsored program??

 

Not to mention, the way the pin requirements are worded now, a boy could earn the pin without actually having to shoot any arrows, beyond what he had to shoot to earn the beltloop.

 

National needs to recognize that there are other (one might even hazard, better) avenues for cub scout boys to get safe, quality instruction for archery than council or district run camp ranges. They don't require boys scouts to only earn the archery merit badge at council camps, so why the limitation for cubs?

[ManyHats]

We were told even if we were certified, we would be shipped off by the council and couldn't setup anything ourselves. The council is in desperate need of people trained in shooting sports. We have a small pack, which means a small number of us make it go. We're very dedicated archers and have a lot to give to the boys, but we can't help at council events and not have enough leadership for our Pack to go.(This message has been edited by ManyHats)

[Karen_216]

our cub camp is open for any packs to come out in the winter and spring not just for summer. you can look to see if you can arrange a scout weekend for your pack at the camp and if you go through the council course can be a range master. Of course you'd have to commit a certain amount of time to the council to be there.

I agree that if you have a certificate from a certified course they should be able to get the pin/loops.

 

[ManyHats]

To my knowledge summer camp is the only time you can earn archery or bb at our council.

[Gunny2862]

As a BSA Cub Scout Shooting Sports Rangemaster on the BB side, you can also earn those loops/pins without firing a shot. But it does make for good leverage to get them to listen to the presentation and safety brief, "If it looks like you aren't paying attention... I Don't even have to let you shoot."

 

Within our Council I can setup a range at any time or place of my choosing in which I can safely operate said range.

 

What I think is ridiculous (in the humorous kind of way but, yes, still slightly annoying) is that after 20+ years of service during which I served as the Safety Officer for firing military weapons from Pistols' to M16's to Shotguns to Machine Guns and Automatic Grenade Launchers on military ranges for up to 120 shooters at a time, having served as a Range Coach, and acting w/o certification as a Primary Marksmanship Instructor(but under orders and with supervision) that I had to go get certified to run a BB gun range for Cub Scouts and have to go get NRA Instructor certified if I want to run a Pellet gun range for Boy Scouts. I would still think it was crazy but would find it easier to go along with if they said I had to go for .22 caliber or Black powder but for pellets?

 

That said, there isn't any incentive to get trained for any thing in BSA except to do an informed job of delivering the program to the boy's. Which is why I go for all of the training I can.

[scottteng]

Having been shooting sports director for day camp for two years I am in full agreement with the BSA policy in this matter. The shame is that it is not really the boys that would cause problems but some of the adults. There are plenty of other organizations where the serious enthusiasts can get more shooting time 4H and young marines spring immediately to mind. No one is saying that parents cannot set up a practice range in their backyard or on granpa's back 40. Shooting sports is an important part of BSA's overall program but the cub scout program is severely restricted for very good reasons. The younger cubs of wolf bear dens can hardly accomplish the cocking and loading of bb guns as they move up to Webelos they aquire that skill and are chomping at the bit to go further which they will do next year when they cross over to a troop. A child above the norm should seek out a team where they will get more practice time and be able to develop further skill.

[hot_foot_eagle]

I believe the GTSS rule is district and council events.

 

To some extent I agree that the restriction is still overboard. I've assisted on ranges where the "certified" person didn't even know how to load the guns!

 

I've since taken the BB rangemaster course and feel it was a complete wast of my time. There's nothing there that I couldn't have learned from reading the guidelines. Granted, I've had plenty of shooting experience, a good bit of it taught by Uncle Sam.

 

That said, few things make me cringe like a poorly run BB gun or archery range. I have no problems taking a range helper aside and counseling him or her, nor do I have a problem grabbing a wandering barrel and pointing it downrange

 

I'm thinking that the real reason for the restriction is to make sure shooting only takes place where there's extra event insurance.

[scouter.claude]

I was the Ranger Director for 3 years with our Districts day camp in the early 90's. I only had a problem with one Cub Scout and had to remove him from the range. We laid the law down the first day and all the scouts knew if they didn't follow directions they were out. We had close to 150 cubs those years and did BB's on Mon. Wend. and Fri. Archery on Tues. and Thurs. I hknow I had a great time and I hope the scouts did too.

[scottteng]

The more the merrier the more training the better. The problem is the BSA has the right to enforce their own rules on shooting sports under their umbrella. We do not go down to the ROTC officer at the local school and demand they enforce BSA regs there. Military RO's repeatedly use the W word. This is scouts we are not in the business of killing and maiming. The military very appropriately is. All training and language must be Mom friendly. BSA in following the no aiming at people policy has banned laser tag and paint ball altogether despite the hue and cry that generates on occasion. On the other hand the BSA does not sanction a member for participating in any of these activities as long as it is clearly outside of scouting.

[Gunny2862]

scotteng, not to revive an old discussion but what is more Mom friendly than pushing safety?

The W word may be anathema in your view but not calling one a W doesn't make it not one and can easily lower a youths respect for the proper safe handling of them. Otherwise why is the what do you do if you find a gun part of the syllabus for the Scouts earning their belt loops or pins?

The air guns power and projectile do make them dangerous at close range and although they don't have a military purpose they are still W's.

[scottteng]

The emphasis is quite properly on shooting sports. A firearm, bow or wrist rocket is a tool used in that sport much as a bat, balls, and gloves are used to participate in baseball. The weapon aspect comes from the mindset of the user. Any of the above tools has the potential to be used as a weapon (with the possible exception of the glove). I would submit that the preferred weapon of the above tools at least on a cub scout level would be the baseball bat. Much more lethal than the BB-guns, cub pull bows or ROFLMAO wrist rockets. I like the way the BSA runs the cub scout shooting sports program it is an excellent introduction to the sport and to the requisite safety rules while reassuring "mom" that we are not turning her child into the raging ninja warrior she sees him watching on TV. For those individuals with obvious talent I refer them to the 4H /scouts jointly sponsored shooting team we are fortunate enough to have here.

[fgoodwin]

I'm a former Cub Scout range officer for both archery and BBs. I've never served in the military (outside of a three-year stint in the Texas State Guard), and I've carried a firearm, nor do I own one. I have the utmost respect for our men and women in uniform.

 

But I draw the line at those who criticize volunteer range officers because they don't run the range the way its run in the military. I know you guys (and gals ) know more about weapons than I do, but I've been trained in how BSA wants it done, and that's how I do it. I cover all the safety requirements, all the commands for the range, etc. I certainly don't need any current or former military second-guessing everything I say or do.

 

A better way to help is to step up, put your knowledge to use and VOLUNTEER to run an archery or BB range.

[Gold Winger]

I've been a competitive shooter for over 30 years and an NRA shooting instructor for about 20. The range commands for the NRA do not use the W word, we call them "guns." I know that the military doesn't like gun but that's too bad.

 

If I'm teaching personal defense, I call it a weapon. If I'm teaching recreational shooting, it is either a firearm or gun. When it's in my range box on my way to a match, it is a gun. When it's tucked into a holster under my sportcoat, it is a weapon.

 

Different situations, different terminolgy.

 

Just like the military isn't the end-all for how the flag is worn, they aren't the end-all for gun knowledge (sorry Gunny).

 

Come to think of it, a Gunnery Sergeant taught me to shoot (Gunny John Clark). He never refered to our Hi-Standard pistols as weapons and our M1s were called rifles.