Day Camp questions...

[katfincher]

This week we are having our Cub Scout day camp. My first question is when exactly did national okay for girls and toddlers to be part of day camp. In my sons tiger group half of the kids are girls, albeit siblings of scouts, but girls non the less that are doing everything the boys do. Plus they are allowing the toddlers they are watching in a special area be part of the opening and closing ceremonies and preforming skits, as best they can. The camp had their BSA inspection yesterday so someone at a higher level signed off on this. My husband who is an eagle is livid.

 

Second question... do camp directors have to have an accounting of where they spent the money. This year camp cost eighty dollars and they had about seventy five kiddos so they had a great budget but walking into the facility I am wondering where the money went. The camp is held at the local colasium, in a smaller side building, but it looks like they spent twenty dollars on decorations. So I figured they must have some pretty awsome activities. Ya, uh my kid came home with a painted river rock. The kind you find in your back yard.

 

Third... Shouldn't the camp director have made sure everything was ready before the doors opened on monday morning. It is now wendsday and they still are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Yesturday at pick up they had no clue how they were going to work getting the kids to the cars and started calling kids names before they were even done picking up their stuff and heading to the front. This seems increadably disorganized. It's not like they found out they were having camp a week ago. They have been planning this since the begining of the year.

 

I am not trying to be difficult, but how do I explain this to my pack parents and tell them our council allowed it. This is not at all the experience I was told it should be.

 

Kathryn

[packsaddle]

Someone else will have to address your question regarding budgets.

I suspect there is a lot of local variability for all aspects of this program. In our area the day camp is organized by- and run by- volunteers. The DE is involved but mostly to find the volunteers and sort of look over the program. We usually have a really great program but, then, we have a really great natural setting for it.

The best solution I have to suggest is for you to go to the DE and volunteer your efforts to improve the experience...which, compared to what we have for about the same money, sounds like it could stand some improvement.

Did your son have fun?

[ManyHats]

$80 - ouch! Ours cost $35 if you registered early and then went up to $45. Ours is only 3 days. Is yours longer? Are they getting any awards (ex. archery & BB belt loops)? One of districts in our council is having a tot lot for siblings. Since our district doesn't, I don't know how it is handled.

[FScouter]

Day camps in our council are $125. It's no secret around here that day camp is a fund-raising exercise. The expense budget runs around $30 a head.

 

Like all Scouting events, the quality of the event is determined by the volunteers that run it.

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the Forums.

 

In our Council, Heaven Help the DE who has non-BSA kids out in the camp. That's what TOT LOT is for. In fact, there is a National Camp Standard for Day Camps covering Tot Lots. Non-BSA children are supposed to be in Tot Lot.

 

That said, I don't know what your Councils' rules are. If they're signing up all comers, well, I'd hope that's a decision your Council Executive Board and SE made in the full light of day.

[katfincher]

We have a tot lot, but just for tots and they still participate in opening and closing. Siblings are in the groups. I don't think this was an open to the public camp thing just a sibling of a scout thing and they are right there with the boys. Our camp is all week 9 to 3, but I am just wondering what exactly I am getting for the money. No one has mentioned that it is a fundraiser for council, so I am just curiouse.

Next year I fully intend to get involved, this year I had a baby so he kind of decided for me.

[meschen]

Cub day camp in our council was $180 this year (five days - for six hours a day). Cost of living in the San Francisco Bay Area I guess. I know I've been put-off by the price, which seem to be increasing pretty quickly. But in the past the program has been fun for the Cub Scouts (not so much for the Webelos though), so I bit the bullet and did it one more time this year. Next year I think we'll do something else.

[Pack212Scouter]

Our Day Camps are for five days and cost $80-$90 depending on location with a $10 early bird discount and a $20 late fee (three weeks after deadline). The registration includes one youth and one adult and is for Scouts only. There is a Lil' Buddy program for siblings that costs $20 and is ONLY for children of the volunteers.

 

At our Day Camps, they work on some Belt Loops, BB, Archery, and some achievements. I've never been to one, but understand that they are quite fun. This year we decided to promote Resident Camp more than Day Camp. We found that when attending for the summer parents chose one or the other and we wanted them to have the "camp experience." As a result we saw a significant rise in camping attendence for it.

[infoscouter]

Our council allows siblings to participate at our fall day camps, but not the winter ones. The winter camps are very popular, and don't have room for siblings. We do not have day camp in the summer, only resident camp. Siblings do not attend resident camp. I don't know when this crept in, but in today's environment of dual income families, day care challenges, I can understand why it has become a reality

 

Your volunteer committee had to prepare a budget (believe me I've done my share of those). They are probably paying rent and perhaps janitorial fees for the building. I would bet that's where some of the money is going. Sometimes staff is all volunteer. Sometimes you end up paying lifeguards, or health personnel if volunteers aren't available. It's hard to know what they have to pay for, and what other activities may be included later this week. Typically, we allocate $1.50-$2.00 per camper per day for supplies. Some councils expect or require events to turn a profit. That could be the case with your council.

 

Since the camp was visited (we don't do inspections any longer, they are called visitations), then they probably met the BSA standards. If they hadn't met some of the critical standards, they would have been shut down.

 

As for organization, well Day Camp is generally run by volunteers from various units in the district. The first time I went to National Camping School, we were taught that Day Camp is a cooperative effort of all the packs in the district. If your parents are not happy with how things are run, they should ask about joining the committee/staff for next year.

 

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that sometimes you set up what you think is a viable system, and no one listens to the instructions. Sometimes the system doesn't work as well as you hoped, and you have go to "Plan B". They may have had a volunteer cancel or get ill. This may be their first time doing this, and they didn't realize there would be a problem. Without knowing their challenges, it is difficult to judge.

 

Are your son and his den-mates having fun? Are they learning?The things that matter to adults don't penetrate to the kids most of the time. If they're getting something from the experience, that's the important thing.

[John-in-KC]

Again, not knowing what your council put forth...

 

In my Council, Tot Lot reaches from 6months to 13 years, 359 days. If a youth is 14 and completed 8th grade, we have a simple answer: They join a Venturing Crew and we put them on staff.

[ScoutNut]

Actually $80 for 5 days is not to bad. We charge $40 for 3 days.

 

What do you get for that - Some of the expenses involved are - T-shirts for everyone, patches for everyone, all supplies (they did not just pick that rock up in the alley & someone had to pay for the paint) for all activities, snacks and drinks, insurance, facility rental, other facility costs (janitor?), first aid supplies, and any local permits the town needs.

 

You stated they have been planning this since the beginning of the year. Are you sure about that? While our District Day Camp has been on our Council calendar since last June, they had not been able to find a Camp School trained volunteer to be Camp Director until the middle of last month. So nothing much beyond the theme, cost, & the place has been planned yet. The CD had a box full of "stuff" from prior years dropped off at his house, and that's it. He has been sorting thru it slowly. Lucklily, our Day Camp is not until the beginning of August. We have time to work on it, and we also have the luxury of being able to borrow ideas and purchase left overs from the Day Camp of another District that runs before ours and uses the same theme.

 

It sounds to me like you might have inexperienced Camp & Program Directors. If so then, yes, things might be a bit hectic if they have never dealt with the realities of Day Camp before. Trust me, even with experienced Directors, in the best of camps, opening and closing can be hectic with all of those kids.

 

As for Tag-a-Longs and Tots, perhaps your District was having problems getting volunteer staff and/or den "herders" and needed to include siblings to combat the problem. Cub Scouts is a FAMILY program, and as long as it was advertised as siblings allowed, insurance was there to cover them, and there was age appropriate programing for them, I really don't see why your husband, Eagle or not, should be "livid".

 

BTW - We do not want to pay for the extra insurance and programing so we limit our Day Camps to registered Scouts only.

[SSScout]

Spouse is CSDC Director. Makes me "Assistant Everything Else".

CSDC s are very site specific: physical area restraints, Council restraints, local politics, local economics, etc. I would not expect a more rural Kansas District, for example, to cost the same as a Big City District CSDC.

 

We picked up a wavering program and have run the CSDC for the last 5 years to great acclaim (twist arm patting selves on back). BUT...

 

When we found our ideal park location (woods, picnic pavilions, lake for fishing and boat ride, open field for sports and state police helicopter landing, easyroad access and good parking but somewhat isolated for control issues, etc.), the park authority was very cooperative and the park staff continues to be so. But the higher ups decided that Scouts needed to be treated the same as anyone else in fees and charges, not-for-profit status not withstanding. So if Lockheed Martin wants a day in the park for it's staff, we now get charged the same fee, (times five days) plus extra consideration for wear and tear, etc. Our use fee has MORE THAN TRIPLED compared to the first year fee. O/A park service hours and total cleanup notwithstanding. Scout professionals negotiating and Scout letter writting hasn't worked. Council now adds a $10 extra fee per Cub to cover our camp this year. Next year we are looking for a new site, mores the pity.

 

To answer the questions, yes the CSDC Director has to make an accounting to Council for the expenses. So much per Cub in, so much per Cub for craft supplies, "specials", rent, etc. And yes, they know about the camp months in advance. Doesn't mean there are enough Volunteer Staff to make everthing happen as it should. But the Lord will provide.

 

The CSDC depends more than any other Scout activity on local volunteer work. Nothing could be done except a volunteer does it. Our DE is good and we could not do it with out him, but the CSDC Director needs all the help he/she can get. "It's for the kids" and we put out because of that. One of our stalwart CSDC staffers just changed jobs and already he says he will be looking for a new job again. Why? because his new boss will not allow that CSDC week off.

"Great job otherwise", he says.

 

Be charitable in your judgement of the CSDC arrangements. I think you'll see that painted rock may well be a bargain, but consider: How would you have done things differently? and then... Why not offer to do so? I decided along time ago that the grass will grow whether I cut it every week or not, the rug will eventually get vacuumed, and the car gets dirty and then gets rained on again. But the boys will only be Scouts for a short time. Let's see if I can give them something to take with them thru the next year.

 

KiS MiF YiS

[Karen_216]

I think you got a good deal. We pay 135.00 for 5 days. if you volunteer the FULL week your scout goes free. I have an older daughter and she volunteers as a junior councilor. Helping had out stuff, cleaning up stations, etc. They also use boy Scouts to do this too.

As for why didn't they seem prepared? Perhaps they weren't allowed to occupy the facility until that morning. or could just be lack of preparation- these are mostly volunteers.

Day camp and any camp is about the skills learned and achievements that get completed not the crafts that go home.

Stay a little longer one day or come early to see what stations they do and some of the activities. There are many supplies that they need even if they are not items taken home. More than likely on the last day he may come home with a bunch of stuff and either have his book signed off or a list of what he did.

As for those tots. Ours has a tot lot for younger sibs (form 3 up to scout age). The volunteers should be putting their kids in it during the programs. If they dont' and are tagging along then should not be allowed to do the same things the scouts do. Maybe needs someone to point out to the camp director.

The tots if given crafts. etc t keep busy are the leftovers. Nothing is ordered for them. Mostly they just play games.

[Gunny2862]

I happened to have a great experience and was highly impressed with the job the other volunteers did running the other areas at our Cub Scout Day Camp last week. We had a possible weather event requiring shut down and evacuation to a nearby building(which they had previously made severe weather plans with) and a failed attempt to forcibly remove a child by a non-custodial parent and they handled both situations better than I have seen at some professional day care providers. No toddlers were seen by me - I was at the far end of the site, but one sister did come along for the ride but didn't participate in the program areas.

 

I was drafted (kindly asked) to run the BB Range on the Thursday prior to the Saturday on which the Rangemaster Training was propitiously offered(in another city >50 miles away) on the weekend prior to Day Camp starting on Wednesday for three days. Set up on day one (to my standards)(including verifying that one could hit where one aimed and doing sight adjustments) took every single second prior to the camp start time. So some volunteers may not have had a lot of prep time, this one would go back to the Camp Director.

 

I don't KNOW what the costs for the campers involved were, but they did pay me and 13 yr old Scout son(acting as a second pair of eyes to keep other groups from coming on the range while I focused on the Shooters) with a Staff T-shirt a piece and with lunches on all three days. I am fairly certain that we delivered good value for our compensation.

 

But I hope the parent's didn't focus on WHAT the Scouts brought home, it was a leather stamp totem with dyed feathers attached signifying that they had hit each program area and I remember a pine birdhouse and a target from our area(that may or may not have had a hit on it which was largely determined by whether or not they paid attention to the "class" portion, but rather whether the Scouts learned anything at their camps program areas.

[Scouting Mom]

As you can see from the responses you have so far, every council runs day camp very differently. Of your concerns, however, there are some universal truths.

1. Day Camp is run by volunteers. Although it varies from place to place, in our council the only paid staff member isn't really Day Camp Staff, but the District Executive whose full time job making about $35K is to spend his days pushing paperwork and his nights and weekends making sure scout units are thriving throughout the district.

 

2. Someone, somewhere, is responsible for a budget, but the pressure is likely to keep costs low, not make sure you get what you pay for. Our Day Camp costs $130, $150 or $175 depending on how early you register and we've been told that if our council doesn't significantly increase popcorn sales next year, the price of day camp will go up again because it's losing money.

 

3. Day camp directors are required to go to a three-day training for which they don't get paid and MAY have to pay for themselves. These trainings only occur in about a dozen locations across the country and are only offered 4-5 times per year, per region. This training is only good for 2 years and then the person has to go again, or more than likely, someone else steps up, making for a high turnover in camp directors.

 

If your camp director has only been planning since the beginning of the year, he's running late. He was probably just recently recruited to the position. Our day camp director started recruiting staff for day camp this year, during day camp last year. Those staff members started brainstorming ideas at the same time. We haven't had day camp yet and he's been looking for months to recruit his replacement because his 2-year training is expiring.

 

Day camps often have "Tot Lots." They are optional and are generally at the discretion of the camp director, but parents of Cub Scouts who are volunteering to run stations or even just be den walkers often have more than just the one child (their scout) which means if you want them to help, you need to do something about their young children, hence the tot lot....some charge for this, some don't, but toddler/preschool boys in tot lot are future Cub Scouts. It's in everyone's best interest to let them see what their big brothers are doing and to let them participate in some small things, like skits and songs. The girl siblings having full participation in Day Camp is new this year in our area, (fully approved by council) I don't know about elsewhere. But it grew out of those girls in tot lot, who are too old to be hanging with the toddlers, but too young to be left home. Just like tot lot, it's intended to make things easier for potential volunteers.

 

So, what do you do about it?

 

You know that old saying, "If you want something done right, do it yourself" I know that's not the answer many want to hear. We all have demands on our time and we can't do it all, but if you really don't like the way something is done, find out who does it better and how it's supposed to be done. Then take the knowledge back to your district/council/etc. and help plan how to make it better. Visit other camps within a reasonable distance and see if you like it better and either help make your local camp better OR next year, take the kids somewhere else. There is no rule that you have to stay within your district or even your council.