Big PM problems

[scouter1960]

Our PM seems to have lost complete interest in the pack but is not willing to step down. He does not follow through on many committments, everything is very last minute and disorganized, hasn't been showing up to many activities, often doesn't return emails or calls to leaders, parents, CC. I am one of the leaders and I recently approached him about it. I said it seemed like he needed some help and he agreed. I lined up people to take on the things he said he needed help with, but he still continues with this behavior and says he can't get any help.

 

We had a near disaster recently over not turning in some forms to council for a major activity. Knowing that he hasn't been taking care of things I made a call to council the day before the drop dead deadline and was told the forms were not in. I sent urgent emails, no answer. I called and was surprised when he answered the phone. When I told him the situation, he seemed irrated and completely disinterested. He said someone else was to blame. The next day he called me back, told me he got it taken care of and blamed on another person entirely. I learned that the information he gave me was completely untrue.

 

He does not follow the order of things. He overrides the CC on things that are her respsonsiblity, tells the leaders how they will run their dens. He has said that "If you are the one in charge, you should decide how things are going to be run." We haven't had a treasurer's report all year, though we've asked him for one. (He takes care of this). All we have been told is that we are out of money and need to do a fund raiser. The pack meetings over the last 4 or 5 months have had no agenda or planning to them at all. He starts with announcements that last over 20 minutes, most of which have been stated again and again. Then does the awards and then we're done. If scouts are not getting awards, parents have stopped attending. He controls the website but hasn't updated the calendar in 3 months.

 

We have parents and leaders that are saying that are done. That the lack of organization, the lack of communication, poor attitude are too much. I told him directly in the perviously mentioned conversation and he didn't blink an eye. I told him parents are talking about leaving (we are a small pack) and the pack will die. He just said that there wasn't much that people should be upset about.

 

Today he was to have the round up invitations sent out. It was the last day to send them before our events and it wasn't done. We had a project this afternoon and he didn't show up and didn't notify anyone. Many parents stated their disgust over it.

 

Our COR is "on paper" only and they don't have any idea what's going on or what their role is.

 

He started out great, enthusiastic, fun. He seems like an entirely different person now. He says he wants to continue, even though he won't have a son in the pack for a couple more years. We don't really have any one that is willing to replace him because the pack is dwindling and disorganized.

 

I don't want to hurt his feelings or cause an uproar, but what do we do? The CC is resigning. I plan to speak with him directly soon. I think I know what I want to say, but he is a very defensive person and the last time I spoke with him I didn't get anywhere. I appreciate all the work that he previously put into the pack and I don't want him to feel like he is being "kicked out" but really, he is not leading the pack and overall alienating all the leaders and parents.

 

Any suggestions? Our pack is about to die.

[Gold Winger]

By PM do you mean "Cub Master"?

 

The Cub Master doesn't have to be willing to step down. The CM serves at the pleasure of the CC and the COR. Since your COR is AWOL, the CC can just fire the CM. Harsh but true.

 

" He overrides the CC on things that are her respsonsiblity, tells the leaders how they will run their dens. He has said that "If you are the one in charge, you should decide how things are going to be run."

 

The problem here is one that is epidemic in Scouting more often in Packs, the CC is in charge not the CM.

 

"I don't want to hurt his feelings or cause an uproar, but what do we do?"

 

Why? He's not doing his job. If he was a plumber that you brought in to fix your toilet and spent all of his time telling the carpenter how to do his job but never fixed the toilet, you wouldn't worry about his feelings. Would you?

 

Just because he's a volunteer doesn't mean that he's entitled to special treatment even though he's running amok.

 

Get your Unit Commissioner involved for moral support if nothing else. But take steps now to fix the problem or the pack may fold. What's worse, hurting the CM's feeling and having him take his son out of the pack or having the pack fold and hurting all the boys.

 

 

[scouter1960]

 

Yes, I meant CM.

 

The CC has resigned and I am considering taking the position. I really want to do it, but I know that I will just inherit the problems she had with him. I know that as the CC I could remove him, but I don't want to look like a bully or like it is some kind of power-grab because it positively is not the case. I just care passionately about scouting. We have a great (but small) core group that is fed up.

 

 

I asked around to see if anyone would like to be the assistant CM, so at least some male leadership would always be attending our events, but no one is willing to work with him.

 

I guess I am just answering my own questions and showing my wimpy side LOL. I just feel uncomfortable about asking him to step aside and am a little concerned that he will not take it well at all. We all have to see each other at school events and he lives on my street.

 

[John-in-KC]

COR on paper usually means no one has cultivated the Chartered Partner over time. If you take the CC position, you can help repair this relationship.

 

If you accept the CC position, insist on having a discussion with the Executive Officer of the Chartered Partner. Quietly discuss your concerns, but tell him you want the best experience the youth members can get!

 

Visit also with your Unit Commissioner. Find out what resources he/she can bring to the table.

 

Take training. Learn to use the tons of resources Scouting makes available to you. Learn "what right looks like," so you can give the youth a great time for their beginning of the trail.

 

Attend roundtable; network with others, get program and support information, and have some Scouting fun

 

I wish I could tell you all will be well ... but whether this CM stays or goes, there's going to be work in getting the unit back to a smooth running operation.

 

If you take the CC position, take the CM out to coffee. Find out what is happening in his life. It may be that as bad as it is, his service to Scouting is an anchor in his life.

[ScoutNut]

Reading your list of things that your CM has done/not done and the list of things that he has done wrong, it seems to me the problem is not JUST your CM.

 

You are blaming him for the death of your Pack when, in truth, the fault lies with the parents and the entire leadership, especially the Committee Chair (CC).

 

Your CM has been telling you, over and over again, he is overworked and doing to much.

 

 

"We had a near disaster recently over not turning in some forms to council for a major activity. Knowing that he hasn't been taking care of things I made a call to council the day before the drop dead deadline and was told the forms were not in."

 

Why didn't the Pack Activity Chair handle this? The CC has not recruited a Pack Activity Chair so the CM is doing that job? Why didn't one of the leaders/parents who were actually going to be at the activity handle the registration?

 

 

"We haven't had a treasurer's report all year, though we've asked him for one. (He takes care of this)."

 

Why is the CM doing the job of the Pack Treasurer? Why hasn't the CC recruited a parent to take on that job?

 

 

"All we have been told is that we are out of money and need to do a fund raiser."

 

Where is the Pack Money Earning Chair? Is the CM your Popcorn Kernal too? In many Packs the Treasurer is also in charge of fundraising, but not always. Often there is a SEPARATE parent volunteer who does this.

 

 

"The pack meetings over the last 4 or 5 months have had no agenda or planning to them at all. He starts with announcements that last over 20 minutes, most of which have been stated again and again. Then does the awards and then we're done."

 

Planning the Pack meeting agenda should happen at your monthly Pack Leader Committee meetings (which are run by your CC). This is not something the CM should be doing on his own. Pack newsletters (with a SEPARATE volunteer Chair recruited by the CC) should replace long, boring announcements. It sounds like your Pack Advancement Chair is, once again, your CM.

 

 

"He controls the website but hasn't updated the calendar in 3 months."

 

Once again - Not the job of the CM. The CC should recruit a separate parent volunteer to be Pack Webmaster.

 

 

"Today he was to have the round up invitations sent out. It was the last day to send them before our events and it wasn't done."

 

This is the job of the CC or the Pack Recruitment/Membership Chair - once again not the CM.

 

 

"We had a project this afternoon and he didn't show up and didn't notify anyone."

 

Was the CM in charge of this project too? Why didn't a den leader take charge of the project in the CM's absence? Why was the CM's presence necessary to the project?

 

 

"He started out great, enthusiastic, fun. He seems like an entirely different person now."

 

Of course he seems like a different person! He is burning out faster than fireworks on July 4th because he is doing the job of the entire committee!

 

 

"Our COR is "on paper" only and they don't have any idea what's going on or what their role is."

 

Get your Unit Commissioner (UC) and your District Executive (DE) to pay your COR and your Charter Org a visit and help them see what their part in all of this is. Hopefully they can get the COR to training.

 

 

"Any suggestions? Our pack is about to die."

 

If you take over as CC, I would suggest the FIRST thing to do is to get trained and get your other leaders trained.

 

You have parents who are upset, disgusted, complaining, and threatening to leave. However, NONE of them are willing to work to help the Pack improve! They would prefer to belong to Baby Sitters of America? You, as CC, need to get these parents up, out of their armchairs, and recruit as many as possible to be new registered Committee Members and start spreading the work around.

 

Good Luck

 

 

 

[Karen_216]

Such good points. When someone is burned out they lose all enthusiasm and sometimes get so overwhelmed they can do nothing. If the peopel who complain aren't willing to help they are part of the problem. All packs run better when the work is spread out.

The CM does not have to give up these other duties the CC finds someone to do them and gives them the job. Find out waht' going on and why he's responsible for all these other jobs.

You have to have a budget meeting and pack planning meeting. YOu need to have monthly pack planning sessions where everyone shares what is goign on and responsiblities are doled out. Now is the time to get a popcorn chair for the fall. Now is the time to do your planning for next year. If you need money have a car wash or yard sale for the pack for right now.

Involve the parents and recruit to enliven the pack. Maybe you'll see a revivla of the "old" CM when all the other burdens are lifted. Appraoch it as "you are doing too much and we all are going to help you out". Rather than "You're so terrible so you're fired". If then he does not fuflfill the responsiblilite he is supposed to do then you can get a replacement.

[scouter1960]

 

Honestly, I am not trying to come down hard on the guy. I deeply appreciate that he volunteered last year. It's that it's turned into a mess and I am trying to find the best way to keep things going for the boys. I have three of my own kids that I want a strong pack for. I would like nothing more than to see this work out. My prior conversation actually was along the lines of "I see you need help. There are many here at want to help out." It was not a combative conversation ...not my style at all.

 

You're right, the CM is NOT supposed to be doing all these things. That's the problem and why we are such a disorganized mess with lots of frustratd people. He won't let anyone else take over them, then complains that he is not getting support. The CC tried to set up a real committee. It is the CM that decided that we would not have a committee. We had people who have volunteered to be the treasurer (He's an accountant), we have a webmaster parent who has offered to take over the website but CM ignores requests to release the passwords to him. Yet another parent offered to help organize the Blue and Gold, but he decided to do it himself. It feels like a control thing. Whenever the subject of having a real committee comes up he refers to the "if your the one controlling the pack, you decide how it will run" statements. The CC is resigning.

 

We have a strong core group and the leaders are good. They have been doing a great job, but CM recently just announced, off the cuff, at a pack meeting that next year we won't have leaders run their meetings anymore, but rather each den will rotate parents doing a meeting. My jaw dropped on that one as one of the leaders. The parents in my den are very willing and do help me out, but I enjoy being the leader and making sure that we are progressing toward rank. This was never discussed at any meeting and as I understand it, it is not the CM role to run the den meetings. Now we have leaders that are considering leaving.

 

I suspect he IS burned out, but if people step up and volunteer for specific jobs and then he won't respond to them when they are trying to take on the task, what do you do? If there is no real committee then how will anyone know their roles and responsibilities? He says he has gone to the training and that he knows there is a scout structure, but he is so off base with some of these things, I wonder.

 

No doubt we need the COR situation resolved immediately. We also need a CC immediately. I still think the problems stem directly from the CM and the lack of structure, not a group of parents expecting a lot and offering little. Please tell me if I am not seeing this clearly.

 

I appreciate all the comments.

[ScoutNut]

The CM can not take over all of these things and decide there will be no committee unless he is allowed to.

 

The CC should have simply told him that this is how it is being done and who is doing it - period.

 

Webmaster - CM will not relinquish the passwords - Have the CC close it down and start a new Pack web site with the new Webmaster.

 

Treasurer - The CM should NOT be the only one on the bank account. Have the CC go to the bank and take him off of the account. Give the job to someone else. Put at the CC, COR and Treasurer on the account.

 

Blue and Gold Chair - CC should have told CM - Sorry NO - MR/MS soandso is in charge of that.

 

"Whenever the subject of having a real committee comes up he refers to the "if your the one controlling the pack, you decide how it will run" statements."

 

The CC should then remind him that he is NOT the one "controlling" the Pack. That actually the Charter Organization OWNS the Pack. The COR is the one who actually has the final say in how the Pack is run. The COR recruits the CC and the CC and COR are responsible for selecting ALL other leaders, INCLUDING the CM.

 

No one really "controls" the Pack. The Pack SHOULD be run by everyone (CC, CM, DL, MC, COR, etc) working TOGETHER for the good of the boys. If you plan on taking on the position of CC then you will need to put your foot down, stand up to the CM, make him do HIS job, and make sure you do yours.

 

Get your UC involved ASAP. Get trained. Get everyone else trained.

 

If the CM does not want to run a BSA program then replace him with someone who will. It does not matter if he is a nice guy. It does not matter that you do not want to make waves. What matters is giving the boys the program they expect and deserve.

 

Here is what BSA National says about the responsibilities of the different parts of a Pack -

 

http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx

 

[ScoutNut]

BTW - You might also remind the CM that without registered den leaders there will be no Pack to "control" because the Pack will be unable to re-charter.

 

 

[Karen_216]

There are no "secret" clubs in scouting. He's making a singular one. Everyone has the right to see the bank info. What does he have to hide?

The den leaders decide how their dens are to be run, if there is some kind of problem w/ leadership then the COr or CC can then decide about the leadership.

The CC needsd to have a strong backbone and set the committee meetings and aganda and recruit various positions.Print out from BSA site the member roles and if he's not with it replace him.

A proper pack is not a dictatorship- it's a democracy.

Really the CM is just an MC. The pack committe is in charge.

I'm a CM and may come up w/ lots of ideas but run it through the committee- also would not be able to get through w/o thier input and ideas. If they don't want some thing it does not fly. We all vote on it. All parents also have a right to go to committee meetings too.

 

 

[mkarlinm]

Hi. I am the cubmaster for out pack. The CC rather me set up the agenda up for all committee meetings but I never put anything in motion unless I have cleared it with the committee first. I work very close with the CC so our pack runs smooth. If you take over as CC make sure you can work with the CM it helps the pack run more smoothly.

The only thing I do not have to run by the committe is how I set up the Pack Meeting which I still let them know what I am planning and get feed back. If they disagree I will take it under advisement and decided to accept the decision or not. Again if the CM can not work well with the comittee then the pack can not run smoothly and then it hurts the boys.

 

Just my thoughts,

Melissa

 

[hendrickms24]

Easy Solution is to replace the Cub Master!

Setup a meeting with concerned parents and Scout leaders.

Tell them in plain and simple language if the Pack

leadership does not get fixed then the Pack is dead.

If nothing comes out of this meeting then find another pack

for your son. Some people may think this is a sissy way out

but a pack program for the Cubs is the most important and if this

Pack does not have one find one that does.

 

 

Mark M.

[scouter1960]

I ran into CM tonight at another function. We had the opportunity to talk for a few minutes. I asked if he was going to be at the Memorial Day parade and he said no, he had yard work to do. Sad. I told him again that I thought he needed help and he just got annoyed. He said he thinks people just don't like him. I said I don't think that is the case at all, but that there is frustration and a lack of structure. I said I would be willing to be the CC and help him if we could develop a real committee and listed the people that have offered help previously. I named names and said we could develop a committee with these people and take the burden off him. He said he didn't think they were committed and had different things in mind, but didn't say what they were.

 

I don't think I can be CC, as much as I would like to. I hate to leave the pack and the boys that I have been a den leader to for the last 4 years, but that is where I am at.

 

Thank you for all your comment and suggestions.

[rjscout]

It sounds like there are enough parents interested in helping to keep the Pack going. If the COR is only on paper, then I would build up the committee (sounds like you have a good start with the interested parents) and have them. If the old CC resigned because of the CM, ask him if he would be interested in rebuilding the Pack. Meet with the CM and have buy into the new Pack structure, or resign. If he refuses to do either, then it sounds like time to give him his walking papers. The Pack cannot be successful with one person running the show. I feel fortunate to have a great committe for our Pack as I become the new CM next week. I hope that I don't have to run into a situation like yours.

[scoutldr]

Scouter1960, I think you're done. Find (or start) another Pack and move on. Your son is only a cub scout for a few years...is this how you want to spend them? Please be sure to give your District Commissioner a call and let them know why you're leaving. This guy is a control freak and you're not going to change him...only the COR can fix this.