How to handle outings and problematic boys???

[Basementdweller]

Had an experience this weekend and have a few questions. I am an assistant cubmaster and new at that. Since last fall I have taken the boys on a bunch of outing and had a lot of fun in the process, except when two particular boys come. These boys have issues beyond behavior but I cannot address that here, so needless to say they are more than a handful. This weekend there was 10 boys with two adults, we had three but one fell ill and had to leave. We spent the entire event dealing with behavior issues with these two boys not listening, speaking over the presenters, just being disruptive to the group. The 8 other boys were all about what was going on so no issues. We survived the event and the boys were rude on the way back to the pick up point to everyone in the car and started fighting with each other. The person picking them up basically just pulled up and the boys ran to the car before I had a chance to speak with them. In previous discussions with them they just made excuses for the boys, They did not seem interested in hearing what we were trying to tell them.

 

My Questions.

 

What could have I done at the event to end redirect the boys or at least make the situation better?

 

I have spoken to the Cubmaster about not allowing them to attend with out a parent or guardian in attendance, Can we do that?

 

Can they be excluded from future events some how?

 

I joined scouts to be with my son, I have fond memorys of my scouting experiences and feel there behavior is having a negative impact on the group. I hesitate to plan any events now because of these two boys, because they always attend, We are babysitters for their parents.

 

With day camp and resident camp looming I am AFRAID of being stuck with them for a week.

 

A parting note, These two boys and the thought of dealing with them has made me consider leaving scouting or at least changing packs. I was awake last night wondering what to do.

 

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

[evmori]

Have a sit down with these boys & their parents. Explain what happened & tell them unless they improve their behavior, they will not be allowed to attend further outings. Also explain if this behavior rears it's ugly head on an outing, mom & dad will be called to come & pick them up immediately.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

(edit - typo)(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Beavah]

 

What could have I done at the event to end redirect the boys or at least make the situation better?

 

A lot depends on your relationship with da boys, eh? If they know/respect/trust/depend on you, yeh have a lot more leverage. If you're just the adult that runs an occasional outing, it's a lot tougher. Particularly if mom & dad aren't backing you up.

 

Generally speaking, removing boys from the activity ("time out") for a period of time can work OK. Second step bein' calling mom or dad and really removing 'em from the activity.

 

I have spoken to the Cubmaster about not allowing them to attend with out a parent or guardian in attendance, Can we do that?

 

Absolutely, yes. In fact, Cub Scoutin' strongly encourages or requires parent attendance with their son on an outing.

 

Can they be excluded from future events some how?

 

Yes, by action of the Pack Committee or CO. Or just by no adult being willing to be responsible for them.

 

With day camp and resident camp looming I am AFRAID of being stuck with them for a week.

 

You should never allow yourself to be put in a position where you are responsible for children and you are not comfortable with da situation. That's good judgment and risk management. If you're responsible for kids, you should have the skills to be comfortable and confident dealin' with anything that's likely to come up.

 

Now, you can choose to get the skills, eh? If these young lads have known behavioral/medical conditions, you can go consult with folks who know how to deal with such things, and learn techniques for handling the kids. That's a kindness, to go out of your way to get training so that even kids with handicaps or conditions can participate. Or you can change the nature of da trip so that you are comfortable being responsible (require parent participation, have the boys attend durin' the day but not overnight, add extra adults, exclude the boys, etc. Whatever you choose, you have to be willin' and able to supervise and be responsible for the children in your care. That's point #1 of every BSA list of safety requirements, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Basementdweller]

I have taken additional training to help me deal with ADHD. Not saying that is specific to this issue.

 

To answer your questions, The boys do not respect anyone, parents, guardian or leaders alike. I believe they have been in the "system" long enough they know how to manipulate the people and situations to suit their wants. The time out doe not work, They will not do it short of someone physically holding them in time out, which is a big no, no. At one point I spent 20 minutes trying to locate one of them, who was doing his own thing.

 

beavah, thank you for your response. It answers a lot of my questions and calms my concerns about babysitting them for a week at camp.

 

 

[Karen_216]

These sound like some special needs boys. Tell their parents as they require so much one on one attention you need to have a responsible adult accompany them on outings or events. You are responsble for a large group and can not properly supervise when individuals require so much attention.

It is also doing them a disservice for the parents to just dump them on you.

Not fair to anyone involved.

You have to think of everyone's safety.

Call a meeting with the boys and den leader and discuss your issues and requirements.(make sure Cm is in on it)

 

[evmori]

Why do we assume if kids are a problem they have special needs? It is entirely possible these boys are just the kinds who like to poke the pig till it squeals! And all they need is a good old fashioned, well, you know!

[Karen_216]

Basementdweller mentioned that they have issues beyond behavior so maybe it's not special needs in the devolpmental sense but perhaps family or abuse or emotional or something else. Any or these are a special need and may require more attention to be fair to all involved.

 

[Basementdweller]

I tend to agree with evmori, discipline at home would be a great help. They are of average or above IQ it is merely a behavior issue.

[infoscouter]

Sorry this is long. Here's a quote from the Guide to Safe Scouting, which addresses in part your concerns.

 

"Youth Member Behavior Guidelines

The Boy Scouts of America is a values-based youth development organization that helps young people learn positive attributes of character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The BSA has the expectation that all participants in the Scouting program will relate to each other in accord with the principles embodied in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

One of the developmental tasks of childhood is to learn appropriate behavior. Children are not born with an innate sense of propriety and they need guidance and direction. The example set by positive adult role models is a powerful tool for shaping behavior and a tool that is stressed in Scouting.

 

Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored.

 

Member Responsibilities

All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit.

 

If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents.

 

Unit Responsibilities

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit."

 

You should also take a look at chapter 16 in the Cub Scout Leader Book, which has much of the same information.

 

Basically, you don't have to 'put up with' misbehavior and disrespect. You have a responsibility to the other boys to conduct a safe outing. If the behavior of these Scouts is interfering with that, then the Pack Committee needs to help you set requirements for outings. Those could include requiring parents for some or all Scouts. They could include excluding particular Scouts based on past behavior, or until such a time as they can demonstrate respectful behvior (listening, following rules, staying with the group, etc.)

[Karen_216]

Ok so they are obnoxious undesciplined brats that are smart enough to know how to behave.(to make it short and sweet).

I was trying to be understanding. So they are smart enough to understand you saying "listen , if you can't listen and behave then you won't be able to participate. i am responsible for a large group and don't have time to spend to make sure you don't end up in the hospital because you won't listen."

tell the parents the same. you won't take the boys without a guardian going.

does the den leader have the same problem or are you that (unfortunate) person?

[Lisabob]

Are they any better behaved when their "responsible adult" is with them? I have seen cases where having the parent there actually made things worse because either a) the kid had mom's and dad's number and knew it, or b) the apple didn't fall far from the tree and so Scouters ended up babysitting the parent too.

 

If having the parent present helps then I would require that as a condition of participation, along with a very clear discussion with parents about what the expectations of them will be. (I am assuming either that you are the Cub Master or the Den Leader - if you're neither, you need to be sure they're aware of the situation and hopefully in agreement)

 

If parents are as bad as or worse than the kids, and nothing else works either, then perhaps I'd just refuse to lead a group that they were part of. You have to know your own limits.

[Basementdweller]

Well I tried to speak with the parents last night. Her response was she was expecting to hear from me. Interestingly, Her sons said that I was picking on them and treated them unfairly. The discussion went on but it serves no point to include it here. The parent made excuse after excuse and even attacked me.

 

In a nut shell I am considering approaching the Committee about having the family removed from the pack. At a minimum they will never ever go on another out that I attend, parent or not. If the Cubmaster and Committee do not act I will find another pack.

 

BTW, the only other adult on the trip is in full agreement and has put it in an email to the cubmaster.

 

Again this is supposed to be fun for my son and I. It has become a burden.

[Lisabob]

Chin up there, basement dweller! Please don't let your original focus be overwhelmed, the fun is still there for you and your son. But for now, please know that lots of us have "been there" too and will commiserate with you as needed.

 

One of the things I learned in working with cub scouts is that there are a lot of people out there who don't seem to know how to interact with others. For many parents of cub-aged children, the BSA is the first and maybe only volunteer organization they become involved with as adults. Some of them apparently do not know how to be a good member of a volunteer organization because they've had no training or modeling of such behavior in their lives. And then too, there may be family or personal issues, and/or just downright weak parenting skills. So you get some strange behaviors sometimes. It doesn't make it right but it might help a little to put things in perspective.

 

Let me recommend that you don't necessarily need to go as far as removing the boys from your pack. You could simply request that they be placed in another den than your son - with a Den Leader who is willing to take them. And/or that their parents be required to attend all outings with them, and that the CM and CC have a real sit down with the parents to explain expectations. 99% of the time, that puts a stop to things because either the parent "sees the light" or the parent can't/won't spend the time with their own kid and so the family simply doesn't participate. If the parent is in the "sees the light" camp (doesn't sound like it in this case though) then there's a real opportunity for subtle support/building of this person's parenting skills! I've seen many parents grow as a result of becoming involved in a community network like cub scouting.

 

I think that removing them from your pack is a fairly extreme, last-resort step. It is one I'd personally consider when we are talking about physical violence, but probably would not consider just in the case of an annoying child.

 

But, you do have the option of finding another pack as well. If you go that route, I've noticed that packs chartered by church groups, private schools, and other semi-closed organizations tend to have a more common set of expectations about behavior, even if their members come from a broader community background. On the other hand, packs that draw primarily from the local public elementary school tend to have a broader range of kids/families/behaviors to cope with. That's not necessarily a bad thing - especially if that's where all of your son's friends are - but it may be something to consider if you do go looking for a new pack.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

There has been some bullying and not fist throwing but things like pulling the other boys off their feet by jerking on the sweat shirt hoods. In foot races if there is a chance of losing the competition is tripped or knocked down. Pushing the other boys around, on occasion off the stage.

 

We are a very small pack, There is no den activity's to speak of, it is all pack activity's. These boys are bears and my son is a tiger.

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Ah, ok, so there are some other issues in this pack then. One of the quickest ways to get some distance from these boys without leaving the pack would be to help recruit enough boys to actually have dens.

 

How many current Tigers are there in the pack? Do you have enough to start a Wolf den, separately from the rest? If so, go to the committee and suggest it. Explain how packs should function (separate dens, because boys of different ages have separate interests and needs!) and that you'd like to help by getting a wolf den going.

 

Were you aware that boys can join cub scouts right now, and attend day camp (or resident camp, if they're not new Tigers) with the pack this summer? That means, boys finishing kindergarten can become cub scouts on June 1/whenever your school year ends (most councils use June 1). So this is a great time for your son to encourage his best buddies to join the pack too.

 

If you can start up a wolf den, (or even a wolf/bear den) and if the pack can recruit some new Tigers (as few as 3!) to form your next Tiger den, you're more than half-way there.

 

The boys you have trouble with can be in a Webelos den starting next year if they're bears now.

 

Just be sure to stress that dens should NOT all be meeting in the same time/same place. That way the boys get more individual attention and age-appropriate activities, AND you'll have more distance from these obnoxious older boys.

 

By the way - the behavior you describe, while obviously not desirable, would not rise to the level of "kick them out" in my book. It might, though, rise to the level of "Johnny you need to sit out the next activity" or perhaps "Johnny I am sorry but you will need to call your mother to pick you up now." And if the mom thinks YOU are picking on her kids, then have another adult (CM, CC, or Den Leader if possible) be the one to do this.