When is a pack event not a pack event??

[sysprog]

I'm in a pickle.

 

Our cub packs Webelos II den has decided to camp. But not as a cub den. No tour permit, no BALOO trained folks. I don't even think any of the pack leaders have ANY training for that matter. They have presented a permission slip stating THIS IS NOT A PACK EVENT. Activities will include BBs and canoeing. The boys will be given credit toward advancement for work done on this outing. How much 'trouble' can this cause the pack and the leaders? Is it 'legal' as since they have stated it's not a cub scout event?? I have about a million other questions too, but I won't bore you.

 

What on earth to do?(This message has been edited by sysprog)(This message has been edited by sysprog)

[FScouter]

Tell them if it looks like a duck, nobody is fooled.

[scottteng]

They are Web II after all why not just tell them to go find a troop to go camping with. They may even find someone that will let them shoot 22's if they camp at the right place.

[fgoodwin]

sysprog, welcome to the Forums. If this event was organized and promoted during a den or pack meeting, then all the disclaimers in the world don't change the fact that this is a den (and therefore a Cub Scout) event.

 

Two points: (1) Webelos dens may camp as dens -- they don't need to go camping with a troop.

 

And the WDL doesn't need BALOO to take the den camping; in the past, they didn't even need OLS-WL, but that may have changed with the latest Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines, so you should check with your DE or UC about that.

 

(2) But having said all that, they are still Cub Scouts and as such, they are not authorized to shoot BB-guns (let alone .22s) anywhere outside of a council-sponsored activity. And they may not canoe on moving water.

[Oak Tree]

Sysprog,

 

Welcome. You sound concerned, but in reality, I don't know that there's much you can do here. "Is it 'legal'?" Well, yes, there is no law against it. And there are no BSA police that are going to come down on the pack for fraudulently claiming an event is a non-Scouting event.

 

Are the Webelos camping with their parents? If so, and the parents are on-site with the kids, this really doesn't seem any different than a group of families going camping together.

 

"Can the pack get in trouble?" I wouldn't think so. Expectations are pretty clearly set. People know the Scouting rules don't apply. But I'm just a guy with an opinion.

 

Do you have a son in the den? Can you tell us more about the nature of your concern? What is your position in the pack?

 

[evmori]

Well, if someone gets hurt, the BSA insurance will not kick in. And Webelos are not allowed to shoot 22's regardless of who they are camping with.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[sysprog]

It looks like fgoodwin put it pretty well, "all the disclaimers in the world don't change the fact that this is a den (and therefore a Cub Scout) event", or in the brief as FScouter say's..."quack".

 

Yes, I have a son in the pack, but I've left the pack leadership to move on to one of our local troops with our older son.

 

Several boys will attend without parents.

 

I guess I just grin and bear it 'till the year is up as this bunch is a wee bit maverick when it comes to scouting regs ,even if they are a bit on the conservative side.

 

It's a bit nuts to go jump through Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, CPR etc. to spend an afternoon with our troop in canoes, then see a group go this direction.

 

My main concern was if this were to get back to council, would there be problems for the pack. I don't want a decades old pack having problems because a few folks won't spend the whole half or three-quarter day for new leader essentials and position specific training, or listen to those who have.

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

Declaring "THIS IS NOT A PACK EVENT" proves they know they're out of bounds. It's a people problem, training doesn't teach what they seem to lack. Sending your boy means you agree, at least that is what your boy will learn.

[Eagledad]

I did this several times. Back when our Council Webelos Summer camp left a lot to be desired, we did our own Webelos summer camps. The first thing I did was send a very long letter to the parents that while we will be camping as a Group, it was in no way condoned by the BSA, Council or District. The parents had to sign the letter understanding that the BSA was not responsible in anyway. Each family had to prove the ability to pay for any health issues. A parent was required for each scout, however we highly encouraged the whole family to join the fun, which most did. We also had a couple of boys who couldnt send a parent, but other familes took on the responsibility for each boy. We still did the Boy Scouts swimming test and had all the scouts got physicals.

 

I included our unit commissioner in on everything. Everyone knew what was going on. In fact I told a few years later that it was my campouts that motivated Council to fix and improve the Council Webelos Summer Camp.

 

Those were some great times for the families. I just attended a funeral for one of those parents last week and many of the pictures they showed of him were from those campouts.

 

We just wanted a better program than the BSA provided at the time. We had a blast. It was a lot of work, but we had a blast.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[Beavah]

Hi sysprog! Welcome to da forums, eh?

 

I'm not sure how much more clear "THIS IS NOT A PACK EVENT" can be, eh? Ain't got anything to do with ducks. Your son is bein' invited to a private party, like a birthday party. Do you send your son to birthday parties without a tour permit or BALOO trained adult? Alternately, dependin' on how it's structured, this might be a CO event but not a BSA event. Do you send your son on church youth group retreats or school outings without a tour permit or BALOO trained adult?

 

In answer to your questions: This can cause the pack and leaders about as much trouble as an outdoor birthday party or school outing. There is nothing illegal about it unless da laws in your state involving BB guns are unusual.

 

Da hard thing with these things is that it really just depends on the individual case. I'm not real fond of units going "private" on trips just to dodge BSA requirements, eh? But as Eagledad points out, sometimes that's not unreasonable. It's what happens when BSA gets too restrictive; folks just take their business elsewhere, so to speak. Many GSUSA units dodge da Girl Scout restrictions by dual-chartering as a Venturing Crew for that reason.

 

At the same time, there's nothin' wrong with a unit putting the local soup kitchen volunteer night in its pack calendar as "not a Pack event" (just to encourage families to do community service as a family), or to invite da Pop Warner football coach from the CO to recruit interested boys at a pack meeting. Just because folks in the pack are given notice about something doesn't make it a pack event, eh?

 

What on earth to do? The choice you have is whether or not you allow your son to go. Do yeh trust the adults and kids? Then go for it. If not, then say "no."

 

Since they are a Webelos II den and it is May, it seems like it's time for the whole lot to join Boy Scouting, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[CalicoPenn]

If it's not a Pack or Den event, how can Webelos II's earn crdit for advancements?

 

Calico

[FScouter]

Write it in ALL CAPS on the pack permission slip.

[evmori]

If it's not a Pack or Den event, how can Webelos II's earn crdit for advancements?

 

I don't think to advance as a Webelos, all the requirements must be done with the Den or Pack.

[msnowman]

Pack or Den event or not Webelos II can still earn credit for advancement IF the Webelos II Den Leader accepts it. The WDL signs off on completed achievements, not the parent (except w/ WDL approval). So if WDL says it counts, then it counts.

 

YiS

Michelle

[AnaMaria]

They can not get credit for BB shooting at an event like this. BB/Archery belt loops can only be earned at a Council or District camp. Unless there's something specific in the individual requirement, (eg - "with your den" or "at a pack meeting"), that's the only restriction on when/where a requirement can be completed.