Cub Scouts camping without Parent

[rjscout]

So, does that definitely rule out the 'temporary-guardian' assigned by the parent? This can be a grandfather, uncle, fellow scout's father, etc... I am not stating what is right and what is wrong... I am only trying to find the answer. In today's world of single parents, this could greatly reduce a Cub Scout's chances of camping out.

 

As the Cubmaster-to-be, I wouldn't feel comfortable 'hosting' the parentless scout, but I wouldn't have problems with another parent acting as the temporary guardian if I knew that the child's parent approved.

[FScouter]

There is no such a thing as a "temporary guardian". A guardian is a permanent legal arrangement when the parents are dead or otherwise unable to function as parents.

 

On a campout, each boy must be responsible to a specific adult. Ideally that will be the boys parent or legal guardian. If a boys parent or legal guardian cannot attend the campout with the boy, the boy may still attend - some other specific adult must attend to which that boy is responsible.

 

Its up to the parent or guardian to select the responsible adult. It could be another parent, or Grandpa, or even the next door neighbor. Of course that person must agree to accept the responsibility, and the outing leader should agree too. The responsible adult should not be the den leader or Cubmaster or outing leader because that person already has enough to do managing the event without looking after somebody elses boy.

 

Regarding sleeping arrangements, an adult may sleep in the tent with a boy ONLY if the adult is the parent or guardian. A responsible adult may NOT sleep in the tent with a boy not his own. A parent or legal guardian may NOT give permission to skip the BSA rules for sleeping arrangements.

 

A boy may ONLY sleep with his parent or legal guardian,

Or with another boy or boys,

Or by himself.

NO other adult may sleep in the same tent with a boy.

 

[RememberSchiff]

Amazing how complicated Cub Scout camping is. We used to camp in our backyards by ourselves as our first Cub Scout campout - no can do today.

 

There are "temporary guardians" which can be established by the biological parents, or child custodian, or legal guardian, or court to "temporarily" assume the duties same for specific purposes and/or time period. A common example in medical forms, scout leaders are assigned temporary guardianship for the purpose of seeking and receiving emergency medical care for a scout. A babysitter would be another example.

 

We had one Cub share a tent with his grandfather, another with his uncle, both had written consent of the respective Cub's mother (single mom) - temporary guardianship for camping trip. Worked well, all had fun though grandpa shook the trees at night with his snoring. Now to add to the silliness, both Wolf scouts had attended resident camp the summer before with the Pack but without parent or guardian (perfectly BSA legal). The rule says "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian." It does not explicitly say legal guardian.

 

I am a stickler for safety, but these rules and guidelines (often thought to be all rules) produce an atmosphere where some third party always comes up with a "reason" why we cannot enjoy an activity in scouting - why a scout should not go out.

 

Might skip Cub Scouting for my youngest and just take him camping with old dad, I think we both will have more fun. 'I can bring my squirt gun dad?' No problem.

 

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

Actually FScouter, temporary legal guardianship is possible although few people go through the effort for it. Temporary legal guardianship can be granted for a specific event or a specific period of time. It is a document that grants an idividual with temporary legal guardianship to make health, recreational, or other decisions for a minor. It should be approached carefully by the parent though since it does give the temporary guardian the right to make decisions for the child and can even affect parental rights if not done correctly. What is more typically seen by Scouting organizations is a Medical Release Form, not a guardianship as was mentioned here.

 

By far the best way is to have a medical release form for the Scout and allow them to attend with a responsible adult, but not sleep in the same tent with them.

[Beavah]

A boy may ONLY sleep with his parent or legal guardian,

Or with another boy or boys,

Or by himself.

NO other adult may sleep in the same tent with a boy.

 

Yah, this is da sort of thing that can land us in hot water, eh? A wolf cub on his first campout, afraid of da dark, uncertain of his surroundings. Grandpa Joe is out with him, but da Cubmaster, despite the parents' instructions, refuses to let Grandpa Joe sleep in da same tent. Even threatens Grandpa Joe with removal. Wolf sleeps alone or with another wolf. Somethin' bad happens, perhaps when da wolf gets up in da middle of the night, perhaps b/c of the lad's medical/emotional history, whatever.

 

As trip leader, did you have a duty of care? Yes.

Did yeh unreasonably violate that duty of care, accordin' to the standards of the greater community? Arguably Yes. No reasonable youth leader would make a 2nd grader sleep without an adult on his first campout if his grandfather was there with da parents' express or implied consent.

Did forseeable harm result? Arguably Yes.

 

More to the point, it's likely that grandpa and da parents would be upset, da boy would never be in Scoutin' again, and the reputation of Scoutin' would be damaged.

 

On da flipside, there's no real exposure for Scoutin', since Grandpa Joe is not a registered leader or agent of da CO, eh? Even if Grandpa Joe is molestin' the lad, he doesn't need the campout to do it, eh? He's already got access. Guaranteed it's goin' on all over da place outside of Scoutin', so yeh certainly run no risk of makin' it worse. Yeh aren't lettin' him sleep with any other kid (the real purpose of da rule), and perhaps an alert YP-trained adult might even clue to da issue.

 

The guideline is perfectly sensible, and should be followed in its intent. It's da senseless application that can do damage. And lest yeh say it should be changed, it just ain't possible to write a rule that says "don't sleep in the tent, except in the case of this, that, or the other thing, but not in the event of A or B, etc." All rule writers at some point rely on the intelligence and common sense of the average good citizen.

 

B

 

[FScouter]

I fear that encouraging each individual to figure out the "intent" and the "standards of the greater community" is just a nice way to give permission to ignore rules, policies, or guidelines if following them is inconvenient.

[acco40]

Beavah, I agree with FScouter. Look at what you posted, The guideline is perfectly sensible, and should be followed in its intent. It's da senseless application that can do damage. So, imagine me talking to a police officer - yeah, that 40 mph speed limit is a nice guideline but because I have a sports car with great handling, the weather conditions were dry, daylight, unlimited visibility, other traffic was non-existent and the fact that I have great driving skills, I used "common sense" and drove at 55 mph, i.e. I didn't want a senseless application applied to my circumstance!

 

(In my best Bob White impersonation) As Scouters, we've signed up to deliver the BSA program which has guidelines and rules. We should not become cafeteria Scouters and choose to follow only the one we find sensible.

 

Our troop had an outing this weekend. No meds were given to me or the other two Scouters by the youth or their parents. When bedtime came, two of the Scouts told me they had to take their meds. Well, I stated that they would have to give them to me. Both were proprerly and clearly marked and with very little resistance the Scouts gave them to me. However, each had stated that their mothers wanted them to hang on to the meds (I know their mothers and firmly believe the Scouts) but that no, I couldn't let that occur. I believe that these Scouts and their tentmates are mature enough that they could have handled dispersing their meds without adult supervision but so what, my promise was to deliver the Scouting program in accordance with the rules and not my personal whims.

 

My oldest son, a youth in the eyes of the BSA takes meds on his own 95% of the time. The only time he does not is during a Scout outing. He doesn't complain, I don't complain and IMO, others should not either.

[Beavah]

Yah, I agree with FScouter too, eh?

 

There is always that fear.

 

Perhaps there is also even that risk, but I really don't think it's very large. Da very few folks who are out there who are hell-bent on ignorin' the rules are going to do it anyway. They don't need an excuse. They make 'em up themselves.

 

For the rest of the good Scouters out there, I think helpin' them interpret and understand the guidelines is a reasonable thing. For one, it will keep 'em from getting in trouble while doin' something stupid in following the rules. For another, talkin' about the reasons and intent for certain rules helps 'em understand the whys and wherefores, and makes it more likely for them to follow the guidelines and exercise good judgment.

 

Just like with da kids, eh? I expect very few scouters, and certainly very few good scouters, get all adult-directed and tell them "just shut up and follow the rule... trust me, I know what I'm doing, and if I tried to explain it to you you wouldn't understand anyway." The good scouters I know take time to explain da whys and wherefores, and answer questions, and help da kids develop understanding and good judgment. That reinforces the rules, in the long run.

 

Now, as to meds... I don't know what state you're in, or what your local council rules are, eh? But there's just no BSA rule like what you say for unit activities. In fact, if yeh read the G2SS rules or yeh take Trek Safely training, yeh learn that the leader reminds youth and adults to (themselves) bring and take prescribed medications. My advice to you is that you not take a lad's medication away from him and assume responsibility for its administration. Them's dangerous waters unless you have the medical training needed to assume that responsibility - extremely so if it's contrary to the parents' desires.

 

Another case where understanding helps improve safety and risk management, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[willingandable]

The main thing is to have a one adult for each cub or at least for every 2. Sometimes parents can't go, but the boy shouldn't suffer because of it. The parents should be able to send an adult in their place as long as they also provide a medical release. No parent is going to appoint someone to be in charge of their child if it isn't someone they trust. This is almost always a close family member. We have several grandparents who are active in our pack. I have never heard of any problems resulting from this.

[Bob White]

Whether one unit has not had a problem with a non-parent tenting with the scout or 200 units have not had a problem is immaterial to the policy.

 

This is not a condition you are given a choice to follow or not follow.

 

This policy should be well understood and well communicated to ALL families well in advance of the activity.

 

No scout can be in a tent with an adult who is not a parent or legal guardian of that scout.

 

There is no gray area here. There are no allowable exceptions.

 

 

[rjscout]

But the G2SS does not say 'legal guardian', it say "When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian." That is why I asked using the term 'temporary guardian' in reference to a non-legal guardian who was temporarily appointed by the parent for the camping trip. I don't have a problem with the stricter interpretation. If a grandparent takes a boy on the trip, does the boy have to sleep in a separate tent? To keep him from sleeping alone, does another scout have to sleep away from his parent to be with the scout? Can Tigers, Wolves and Bears sleep with another Tiger/Wolf/Bear in a tent?

[Bob White]

Guardian in this case, as in the case of the signature line on a scouts application form, refers to a person empowered by the court with the legal responsibility for a child's welfare. You can verify this through your local scout office. This is not a responsibility that a parent can give temporarily to another adult via a note to the cubmaster.

 

Again the cub can attend the event without their parent or guardian but cannot be in a tent with another adult. That would be a violation of the BSA Youth Protection Policies, and no unit volunteer has the authority to set that rule aside.

[rjscout]

Thanks for the clarification, Bob. Are there any rules on how young two boys can be to be in a tent on a campout? That's the missing piece, from my side.

[evmori]

A parent can assign a person temporary guardianship to another of their child for a weekend camping trip. There is even a web site that tells you how to do it!

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_14205_give-temporary-guardianship.html

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

Thanks for the link Ed. It confirms that a temporary guardian is not simply someone appointed by a parent prior to a campout. Following the guidance in Eds link, one would first seek the advice of an attorney, complete the necessary paperwork, then go to court to get approval by a judge. Only then do you have your temporary guardian.

 

Neither the Guide to Safe Scouting nor any other BSA publication gives a parent permission to approve another adult to sleep in a tent with their boy. Rather, it specifically says other adults may NOT sleep with a boy.