Cub Scouts camping without Parent

[Oak Tree]

In the parent thread, Horizon said that he didn't think he was allowed to take Cub Scouts camping without a parent. This is a common idea, but I don't think it's fully supported. We normally expect the parents to attend, but if they are unable to do so, we will allow the Cub Scout to attend a pack overnighter with another parent filling in.

 

What the Guide to Safe Scouting says is "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult."

 

Do other packs require parents to attend in all cases?

[bkale]

Our Pack has always required a parent to go with the child. Twofold reason here... in the case of injury or an issue we have the legal guardian present to be responsible for decision making.... and second it encourages the family to all be involved (since Cub Scouting is very family oriented).

 

The one question in my head is if another adult has been identified by the parent (and meets the 18 years old, etc, etc) then are we required to have so kind of written limited power of attorney or temp guardianship provided by the parent naming the other adult as responsible?

 

 

[rjscout]

The G2SS also says:

"Separate accomodations. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian."

 

Does 'guardian' refer to only a legal guardian, or can this be a temporary guardian appointed by the parents. I struggle with this one. There are cases where the parents are not into camping, but the boy loves to be go on campouts. One year, the boys went on a District Cub-O-Ree with their grandfather. For another campout, they would like to go with another scout and his father. Is this strictly forbidden? Is the grandfather a valid guardian? Would a signed permission form cover this situation (written limited power of attorney or temp guardianship provided by the parent naming the other adult as responsible)?

 

I would hate for some boys to miss out on a great overnight, but I don't want to break any rules.

 

[CassieLN]

I am also not sure about this. In the past our pack has said that a power of attorney is needed for medical care if the scout is with another adult besides the parent. I have a scout whose parents have been unwilling or unable to camp with their son for some time. I am tempted to offer tp take the boy to overnight cub camp (and have him sleep with other boys), but then I would also probably be the only adult with him while driving him there, etc, and since I am a leader I don't know if this is kosher. I am sure there wouldn't be problems/accusations, but don't know if I should go out on a limb...

[John-in-KC]

Cassie,

 

Since I've not seen you before, welcome to the Forums.

 

One of the key points of YP training is No 1 on 1 contact. If you can work with a family to double up for the drive to camp (and with gas blasting ever upward, the more people carpooling to a camp, the better), you can work through this particular challenge.

 

That said, only you can decide if the weight of group responsibilities is such that you have to be there for all kids/parents, rather than multitasking 1 kid and den leadership.

 

Have fun, hope this helped.

[SctDad]

I know that when I did the YP training online there was a example of a scout not having his parent to pick him up after the meeting, and they would not be able to be there for 30 - 45 minutes. The situation is one of difficulty. But the possible response is to drive the child him, ONLY if your child is also with you so there is no 1-1 contact

 

I think that you should talk to the parent and see what they would like to do.

[Horizon]

I took it to mean legal guardian I admit, and that was supported by the people I talked to.

 

I am hoping Bob White or one of our other BSA rules experts to clarify.

[acco40]

First of all, Packs/Dens can always make more restrictive "rules" if they wish. However, they may not relax BSA "rules."

 

Each Cub Scout needs to have an adult that they are assigned. This assignment is done by the Cub Scouts parents/legal guardian and not a den leader. One stipulation is that the den leader may only be assigned one Cub Scout.

 

As a Webelos den leader, I took the den to the Council sponsored "Webelos Woodlands" event (four days, three nights of camping) many years ago. Attending were five Webelos Scouts, four parents and two den chiefs. One of the parents had a signed permission slip from the parents of the Scout who did not have a parent in attendance, that they had permission to act on their behalf (and it wasn't me, the den leader). That was (and I believe still is) permissible. The den chiefs were Boy Scouts and therefore were under different rules.

 

One on one contact does refer to legal guardian. No instances of "touched by an uncle" should occur.

 

As for driving, it is splitting hairs but when does a Scout outing start? At the end of some of our troop meetings all will depart and I'll get a lone Scout who has not been picked up yet. Many times my wife will drive along with me so she will leave, taking our tow Scouts with her and many a time I've had to ask our committee chair or one of my SAs to hang back so I would not be alone with the Scout - just protecting myself.

[Horizon]

I am still confused about Cub Scout Pack Camping.

 

OK, so G2SS says that MOST times the Cub brings a parent or Guardian, but that other times they can get away with having an assigned adult.

For being in the tent, however, the Cub can not be in the tent with only one adult who is not their parent, right? Can one adult be responsible for more than one Cub? Can the adult have their own tent and put two cubs in a tent together?

 

(Please note - I assume this is covered in BALOO - I am actually ASKING for someone to quote ALL of the relevant rules on this).

[Beavah]

Yah, great illustration of how good, well-intended rules create headaches in da real world, eh?

 

First rule: No matter what any book says, as an adult runnin' a trip with kids you are always responsible.

 

Second rule: Because you are responsible, you must make judgment calls. Yeh have that authority. You can't give that authority away, nor cede it to a book, nor pretend someone in Irving has the authority, because you are always responsible. See rule 1 .

 

So if we're not comfortable using common sense and good judgment on our own, we shouldn't be servin' as leaders in a youth program. It isn't hard, eh? It's da same common sense and good judgment we use when we invite kids over to our kids' birthday parties (where we are also responsible!).

 

The purpose of the "no one other than a parent or guardian can sleep in a boy's tent" is to avoid all appearance of impropriety, eh? A SM sleepin' with someone else's kid is pretty creepy, eh? Even if innocent, it raises all kinds of common-sense potential for fallout.

 

Now, in your community, would you feel that sense of creepiness if a cub scout's grandfather was sent on the campout by the boy's parents? Of course not. You would rightly conclude that havin' him sleep in a tent with grandpa was far better than havin' him sleep in a tent alone, unsupervised. Would yeh feel that sense of creepiness if everyone was sleepin' together in a 50' circus tent? Of course not. You'd rightly say that was fine, too.

 

Notice I said "in your community", eh? Dat's important. The sensibilities of your community matter. Violatin' them is what exposes you to real trouble, and da BSA can't write specialty manuals for each community. So if in your community people are hyper about not leavin' kids alone with grandpas, then yeh shouldn't do it. But da reverse is also true, eh? If in your community leavin' kids with grandpa would be thought of as fine, but instead you forbid that and left a kid in a tent alone for the night unsupervised, then you are exposed. You've done somethin' the ordinary folks in your community think is unreasonable. That's when folks find themselves in trouble.

 

Now, da purpose of havin' a parent-designated adult acting in loco parentis at a cub outing is so that someone who knows the boy well (and who the boy respects/trusts) can be responsible for the lad's care and supervision. In da real world, that can be a teenage baby-sitter, eh? But in an institutional world like Scoutin' we might need to be a bit more formal, dependin'. I think permission slips designatin' the adult caregiver are a fine thing. I'd encourage them. I'd even insist if I thought for some reason the real legal guardian was goin' to be unavailable. But for cub campin', we're mostly talkin' pretty local stuff, eh? Stuff where it's very easy for mom or dad to meet yeh at the hospital. So it's not strictly required, or unreasonable not to. Just your call.

 

Finally, if someone is really carryin' a full legal power of attorney document signed by da parents, yeh treat 'em just as you would the parent, period.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter]

Guide to Safe Scouting:

"When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian."

 

Any other tent scenarios are OK.

[ScoutNut]

"I am still confused about Cub Scout Pack Camping.

OK, so G2SS says that MOST times the Cub brings a parent or Guardian, but that other times they can get away with having an assigned adult.

For being in the tent, however, the Cub can not be in the tent with only one adult who is not their parent, right? Can one adult be responsible for more than one Cub? Can the adult have their own tent and put two cubs in a tent together?"

 

 

The BEST senerio is that the Cub attends with at least 1 parent (Tigers MUST have a parent-no exception). Failing that the boy can come with another family member, or different Pack family. However, you should have a signed permission slip from the Cub's parents stating who is responsible for their son (you should have signed permission slips for every boy anyway). Also - The Cub can NOT sleep in the tent with the adult. The boys can be in 1 tent and the adult in another, but the Cub can not sleep in the same tent as an adult who is not his parent.

 

Driving - Rule of 3 - 1 Adult & 2 Boys - 2 Adults & 1 Boy - Both are fine. Not fine - 1 Adult & 1 Boy who is not Adult's son.

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

As a young man my father was too busy to be much of an influence in my life. Lucky for me I had an uncle and a neighbor who went camping with me, including several father son camp outs. Of course the world is a different place now. I slept in tents with each of them.

 

Call me names. BUT, is it worth the risk to take cubs on a camp out with out his parent? So what is the appropriate ratio????? 2 scouts to 1 adult???? There are boys who would have no problems and there are others I would not trust them as far as I could throw them. The problem is you cannot just select boys to go.....everyone has to be allowed to go.

 

The "troublemakers" are the ones who will go for sure, they are always the first dropped off at meetings and the last to be picked up. Don't lecture me, we are low dollar babysitters for their parents. Opps I am ranting. Maybe a bit frustrated.

 

 

I just took Baloo training and the instructor said no boy ever sleeps in a tent alone.

[Horizon]

Thanks all for the input for when I return to Cubs (I have two sons with a big spread in age).

 

Somewhere I picked up the "false rule" that Cub Scouts could not sleep in tents without an adult. It did not make sense to me, but once I built that (apparently wrong) rule, you can see where the confusion set in. Please note that this ASSumption was backed up by many others.

 

So, the allowable solution under BSA for my children of single moms who work:

1) Cub needs a designated adult who is NOT the Scout Leader - but this can be shared with another parent.

2) Cub needs to sleep in a tent with another Cub, and no adults in the tent (since, by definition, the designated adult is not their parent or guardian).

3) 3+1 rule for going to and from the campsite.

4) Tigers need not apply.

 

Is this accurate? Please note I am not looking for the "Right" thing to do, I am looking for the "Legal" thing to do under BSA rules (which should also BE the "Right" thing to do). Once I have established that, THEN I can work on making it the best possible situation for all of the Cub Scouts.

 

This confusion brought to you by the rules of the BSA, the nanny-state of 21st Century America, and my own general lack of knowledge.

[Pack212Scouter]

Almost

 

1) Cub needs a designated adult who is responsible for them. (Scout leader should only be responsible for their own child or a family friend (not a rule)

2) Cub can only sleep in a tent with their parent or guardian; or with another scout and not adult..

3) 2+1 rule for going to and from the campsite (if transportation is used as part of the event. If it is an "arrive at the campsite" deal then 2+1 applies once they are there).

4) Tigers, Wolves, Bears, and Webelos may participate in Pack overnighters. Wolves, Bears, and Webelos may participate in resident camps. Webelos only may participate in Den overnighters.

5) Webelos do not have to have their parent along. (In our council, a 1-3 adult/youth ratio with a minimum of two adults must be maintained for resident camps). Each Webelo must be under the supervision of a parent approved adult and it is recommended that parents participate.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)