How far do you go?

[ManyHats]

We have a scout that IMO doesn't really want to be there and scouting isn't priority for the parents. His participation isn't high. (Example - he was at the parade, but didn't want to march so he didn't) He's missed several meetings and showed up 15 mins. before the end of one (even though he was in the same building the whole time)

We sent home a sheet with all the electives and asked the parents to mark which ones their kid has completed. You can't really question some of those, so he's going to get 7 arrow points. More than some of the boys that have been to every meeting and participated. The mom got online and decided he should get 6 belt loops and 4 pins. 2 of the belt loops require posters and another has "Explain to your den".

Do you read the requirements literally and make them bring the poster or discussion to the den meeting?

[scoutldr]

Short answer - yes.

[John-in-KC]

Hi ManyHats...

 

Sigh. Integrity challenges with the parents. Not good ... for them. Remember one of the Aims of Scouting is building Character.

 

I think I'd have a quiet cup of coffee with your Cubmaster and Committee Chair. Make sure you're all on the same sheet of music.

 

I pretty well believe in doing the requirements. If you've not been a Boy Scout in your youth or have a Scout now, one of the adages of advancement is "DO THE REQUIREMENT. Do not add to it, do not take from it."

 

After consulting with your CM and CC, I'd call the question on the particular belt loops and make CamperTimmy bring the posters and do the discussion session. (I'm betting that will be a sheepish "gulp" moment fo rthe young man in question). Then, I'd have a quiet, away from the kids, heart-to-heart talk with the parents.

 

Sadly, I don't think this is going to be especially fun...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[ManyHats]

Swimming, Fishing, Bicycling, Citizenship, Weather and Math were the belt loops listed. Citizenship, Weather and Math were the ones I felt we could question. Do you make them show proof for the others?

[Oak Tree]

I would typically ask in a friendly way to see some evidence. If you know that one hasn't been completed (e.g. show your den), that could be a starting point. "Hey, Mary, I see that you're claiming a bunch of belt loops. This is more than most of the other boys get, so they'll be talking about it. I just wanted to run down the requirements and make sure he's actually done the requirements as written. For example, this belt loop says to present a poster to your den. Did he really do that?"

 

I've had parents say, "Oh, I just thought he'd done everything. I guess not." And other parents have said "Yep, we did them all. Feel free to ask Timmy about them."

[Lisabob]

I like John's and Oak Tree's advice. I would go on to add that yes, it is appropriate to ask the boy/parent about posters and presentations that he was supposed to have done in his den, if you are the den leader. If you know for a fact - because you were running the den meetings - that he has not done these, why not give him the opportunity to do it? Perhaps he made the poster at home and just was shy about asking to present it. But, no poster or presentation (if that's the requirement), no beltloop in my book.

 

Can I ask what age/rank we're talking about here?

[ManyHats]

He is a Wolf, but the requirements for the belt loops are the same correct? The last den meeting was last Wed. They were suppose to have the elective sheet turned in then. I finally got his elective sheet along with belt loops and pins this morning. Our awards banquet is Wed.

Here's the part of those 3, I felt we could question.

Make a poster showing things that you can do to be a good citizen.

Do five activities within your home or school that require the use of mathematics. Explain to your den how you used everyday math.

Make a poster that shows and explains the water cycle.

I don't feel the scout is too shy to show his poster. I feel it was more, what can we cram in and say he earned so he gets a ton of awards at the banquet. I have a feeling when questioned the parent will say he made a poster for the service project she counted for the citizenship belt loop. But in my opinion that's not fulfilling the requirement.

[Lisabob]

You're right that the requirements for the beltloops are not rank-specific. I was wondering because a few of the beltloops you mentioned (citizenship in particular) are likely to be re-done as webelos and if he were a Bear right now, I would have suggested you talk to his parents about fulfilling the requirements and point out that he'd need to re-do the beltloops next year again anyway.

 

I would not be inclined to "count" activities that have a specific "show your den" element to them, unless the boy showed his den. Parents who get upset about that really have no ground to stand upon. But it would also be courteous and kind to attempt to give them some forewarning so as not to embarrass them at the award banquet. And Oak Tree provided some good suggestions for how to do that, I think.

[CassieLN]

I have had this issue a number of times.

 

I would inform the parent while giving an "out"-- make it sound like you are doing your best to accomodate, but they have to meet you half way:

 

"I see that Johnny has missed opportunities to present the poster for the citizen belt loop at the den meetings (please see requirement X in the provided link). Since the awards ceremony is next week, perhaps he could arrive 30 minutes early with the poster for an impromtu meeting with a few early arriving scouts? Otherwise, we can arrange a time for him to show the poster in the next den meeting, and he can then recieve the awards for these belt loops at the next awards ceremony. According to my records, he will recieve XYZ at this ceremony."

 

Do you have no other den meetings/awards ceremonies this year? If that is the case, you would be going out of your way to provide the opportunity for the scout to "make up" the work at the last moment-- but chances are the parent won't take you up on that unless they are really serious!

 

In cubs, I tend to give the parent the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I know that there are parents cheating the system, but it will ultimately affect their family.

[Basementdweller]

You played a bit of a role in the problem. They already have a list of electives in the book, right? If you had not sent the list home this situation would not have happened. You merely made it easier for them.

 

It is a no win

[gcan]

Honestly, this close to the awards banquet i wouldn't give him anything you can't verify, like, tommorrow, that he's done. You don't have time to play the guessing game with him, so call the parents and tell them you will be by at x time tommorrow to see thier documentation (ie anything that had to be written down, or a project completed). I sure wouldn't give him the one that requires a den discussion- you KNOW he didn't do that, and there's no way he will be able to do it.

 

Yes, it's a shame he won't get many awards, but IMO if mom cared that much about it, then maybe he should have been at some of the activities. Besides, if you give him all that stuff to keep mom happy (and the kid won't be nearly as upset as the parents, trust me), then what do you tell the other boys that worked thier little rears off for the stuff they got? You will lose more ground with them than you'll gain with scout #1.

[ScoutNut]

This is a 2nd grade Wolf Cub Scout - not a Boy Scout earning his Eagle. Cub Scouting is flexible, and the standard for Cub Scouts is that they "Do Their Best". Weather or not they have met that standard is up to their "Akela". Cub Scouts (with the exception of the Webelos program) do NOT have to verify, or document their work to anyone but their Akela.

 

A Cub Scout's parents are his Akelas.

 

Any Belt Loop or Pin in the Cub Scout Academics and Sports Program can be completed in one of 3 ways - 1) in the community or school, 2) in the den or pack, or 3) at home with the family.

 

 

"Here's the part of those 3, I felt we could question."

 

"Make a poster showing things that you can do to be a good citizen."

 

Where does it state that YOU, or anyone but the Akela who approved that the Scout did his best on this requirement, needs to see this poster?

 

 

"Make a poster that shows and explains the water cycle."

 

Once again - Where does it state that YOU, or anyone but the Akela who approved that the Scout did his best on this requirement, needs to see this poster?

 

 

"I have a feeling when questioned the parent will say he made a poster for the service project she counted for the citizenship belt loop. But in my opinion that's not fulfilling the requirement."

 

Your feeling and opinions on the posters do not matter. It is not your call to make.

 

 

"Do five activities within your home or school that require the use of mathematics. Explain to your den how you used everyday math."

 

OK - This one MIGHT be a fudge. Personally, since this Belt Loop was done at home and not in the Den, I would accept it if the Scout explained it to his Akela or family. However, you can NICELY (there is no need to browbeat) ask the Scout how he liked doing the Math Belt Loop and what did he discover about the different ways he uses math everyday. If he tells you then the requirement has been satisfied.

 

The Scout completed these Belt Loops and pins at home with his parents acting as Akela. Weather or not you actually believe that he did the work, and weather or not he did the work up to YOUR standards, does not matter. His Akela stated that the Scout did his best, and completed all of the requirements. And, aside from the one possible question with the Math Belt Loop, that is all we can ask of the Scout.

 

Please do not write this boy off. Find out why he has not been attending meetings and activities and encourage him, and his family to get more involved.

[evmori]

If the requirement says "complete with your Den" that's what it means. If it isn't done, it isn't done! And the short answer is yes.

[CassieLN]

You said the belt loops in question were weather, citizenship and math. Below are the requirements. Only math requires a den presentation. I believe that you have to trust Akela that the other two were done.

 

WEATHER

"Complete these three requirements:

 

Make a poster that shows and explains the water cycle.

Set up a simple weather station to record rainfall, temperature, air pressure, or evaporation for one week.

Watch the weather forecast on a local television station."

 

CITIZENSHIP

"Complete these three requirements:

 

Develop a list of jobs you can do around the home. Chart your progress for one week.

Make a poster showing things that you can do to be a good citizen.

Participate in a family, den, or school service project."

 

MATH

"Complete these three requirements:

 

Do five activities within your home or school that require the use of mathematics. Explain to your den how you used everyday math.

Keep track of the money you earn and spend for three weeks.

Measure five items using both metric and nonmetric measures. Find out about the history of the metric system of measurement."

[ManyHats]

Next year it will definitely be run different. There has to be a parent meeting to state they have to sign the books and turn them in each week. I admitt the sheet was too easy. The sheet was sent home to check off what electives they had done, but it clearly stated to refer to the book for detailed instructions. We didn't question the electives they sent in. But in addition to the electives this parent said little Johnny should get 7 belt loops and 4 pins. None of the other Wolves that have been active will be getting anything close to that many.

The kicker was last night this parent told a committee member little Johnny was home making his door stop and said she told her husband he had two nights to complete all the electives she already turned in as being completed.

Your right the boy won't know any difference, but the parent will be all over the committee.