Bear Den "Camp-In"?

[ChuckSt8er]

As one of the first activities with our new Pack, the Bear den for my older son held a Den-specific overnighter in the downstairs area of our Chartered Organization. Most outings rules were followed (proper sleeping arrangements, BALOO and YPT trained leaders present, first aid available, good structured activities) and the boys all had a blast. I'm pretty sure, however, that there was no tour permit filed for this activity.

 

That said, I'm pretty sure that a Bear Den level overnight activity is outside the bounds of G2SS. Based on the description above, is there a circumstance where this activity might be permitted? I'm pretty sure it's not, but wanted to check with the forum before gently bringing this to the attention of my new fellow leaders.

 

US2BFX

[Basementdweller]

Being Baloo trained you know that den camping is limited to weeblos. Calling it a camp in does nothing to change that.

 

http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/Activities/Adults/camping.aspx

[Gold Winger]

Is sleeping in a basement really camping? If that's camping so is staying at a motel.

 

 

[thebigguy]

in regards to scouting, anytime the group spends the night it IS considerd a campout and all rules and regulations are to be followed.

[scoutldr]

Reading the text of the link that Basementdweller posted, it appears that "overnighters" need to be a Pack activity...not a Den activity. BALOO training, a tour permit, and an approved site are required.

 

"Pack overnighters are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved sites. If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and Youth Protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete the Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO) to properly understand the importance of the program intent, Youth Protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts are issued locally. Packs use the Local Tour Permit Application (see the Forms page)."

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Not only should it not be permitted, someone needs to tell your IH and COR that you goofed up.

 

A Pack FAMILY campout is in-bounds.

 

Cubs camping as Dens (below Webelos) is out of bounds.

 

How simpler can you make it?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Gold Winger]

"in regards to scouting, anytime the group spends the night it IS considerd a campout and all rules and regulations are to be followed."

 

Really? Where is that written?

 

Anyway, since the prevailing wisdom here is that the G2SS can be ignored on a whim, I wouldn't worry about it.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Eagledad]

You know I was thinking about the good ol days and when I was a Cub. And I understand about following rules, setting an example and doing the right thing. Still, not to long ago we had a discussion of why scouting is loosing kids and, at least to me, we came to a general consensus that parents are too afraid to let their kids venture out anymore. It is safer in our minds to keep them close playing video games all day and know where they are then let them roam off somewhere to organize a neighborhood football game.

 

Here is an example of adults getting creative and doing a fun activity, safely I might add, and yet it is against the rules. They could have done it exactly the same way and called it a bunch of friends lock-on or overnighter or even a sleep over. Im sure they had a great time as it is, and changing the name wouldnt have changed a thing. But, because it was a fun cub scout Bear event, we have to rethink the whole thing. At least it was a great time for the boys to be a Cub Scout.

 

So, to answer chuckst8ers question; no, there isnt really a way of accomplishing the same activity and appease all the legals.

 

I know that there will be many more discussions of why the BSA numbers are dropping. Sadly it seems, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

 

Barry

 

[ChuckSt8er]

Thanks all. You confirmed what I suspected/knew - - I was just hoping that there was some sort of loophole that I was unaware of, but turns out the rules I was familiar with were indeed the rules.

 

The bad news is that I stood by and kept my mouth shut on this because (a) it literally was my son's first activity with this Den and I wanted him to get to know the rest of the guys and (b) this was also my first activity with this Den and was hesitant to walk in with puffed chest claiming that 'I knew all the rules and they didn't.'

 

The good news is that (a) there were no incidents that happened on this event that would have put the leader/CO at a liability risk and (b) I've signed up to be the Pack Trainer, so I can actually approach these things from a position of knowledge/guidance rather than newbie know-it-all, and we can find other fun ways to build Den fellowship (other than camp-ins) in the future.

 

Thanks for your perspectives on this issue.

[thebigguy]

Gold Winger, I supose I over simplified my first responce. posibly that regulation is just our local councils policy to clarify the BSAs national camping policy. as a camp ranger I am mostly up to date with "our councils" camping policy.

 

 

But I dont think its to dificult to inturpert this National policy, to tell you that this activity is not acceptible.

 

"Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

[Gold Winger]

To me, it comes down to "what is camping?" The dictionary says camping is living in temporary shelters. Hanging out in the basement of a church with walls, electric lights, bathroom, running water, TV, and video games is not camping. If anything, it is just a long den meeting in the regular place.

 

Heck, since you're still in the CO's basement, there's not even a need for a tour permit under the most strict reading of the tour permit rules.

 

Chuck, as is often said here, for a definitive answer, go to your DE or SE.

[thebigguy]

true it may be be best to defur to your DE on this one.

 

do you concider sleeping in a cabin on boy scout owned property to be camping?

 

you are still in doors, you still have electricity and all amenitys, but I can tell you that atleast in my camp that IS camping.

 

my opinion there is no question that it is camping. witch puts the emphasis on "overnight"

[Gold Winger]

Camping? Not really but it is at a "camp." However, we're still have the fact that the Cubs in question never left their regular meeting place.

 

By your definition, it would be camping if the boys watched "Monster Theater" til 3 AM in the family room of their Den Leader.

 

In any case, I don't see why BSA is so anti-camping for Cub Scouts.

[Basementdweller]

I don't think BSA is anti camping, It is all about youth protection. Cub camping is family camping, every cub is required to have responsible adult with them. Did all the Dads stay? It was all Dads and boys right? If it wasn't and everyone was sharing the same sleeping quarters that is another bag of worms.

 

To me it makes no difference if they are in the woods or the CO basement.

 

Too big a risk. It just takes one accusation to ruin everything. Follow the guidelines and file the permits and you are protected.

 

Btw our scout troop has an electronic camp out in our CO's building. Notice I said our Troop. They play video games all night and what B horror films. What fun! It has gotten popular to the point we are planning to invite another troop over for the fun.

[DYB-Mike]

Greetings All!

 

I gotta go with Gold Winger on this.

 

I went to the Guide to Safe Scouting and found thebigguys reference to the prohibition on den camping and noted that everything that followed was in the context of what Im calling for want of a better term stereotypical camping: outdoors, in tents, hiking, bad water, and so on. Nothing here seemed to apply to sitting in the Chartered Organization rec room playing games and watching scary movies until all hours. Im willing to bet that a rec room sleepover was not in the minds of those who drafted the prohibition and that part of the Guide.

 

The term camp-in is certainly a more exciting term than sleepover. I would think the only connection to the event in question and real camping was probably a sleeping bag. As to what is the difference from cabin camping, I would argue that you are still in a wilderness (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) environment and pursuing the same activities as tent camping hiking, swimming, boating, campfire and so forth. The Bears in the rec room were clearly not doing that.

 

I found this thread particularly interesting because my Pack is considering doing this very thing (camp-in at our Chartered Organization). Ill admit it didnt occur to me that District or Council permission would be necessary so long as proper safety precautions were in place. If this idea moves forward I now intend to give the District a heads up.

 

Carl, Im a new guy too and while I respect rules and regulations and will Do My Best to follow them I would not necessarily be a slave to them. Ive worked with federal and state regulations for twenty years and what Ive learned is that regulations can be subject to interpretation and waived if the circumstances are fitting. Also, I note that our rulebook is called the GUIDE to Safe Scouting. No rulebook can anticipate every eventuality thats why we have lawyers!

 

I dont think you should feel guilty for having stood by and kept my mouth shut in this case. The leaders followed the important rules of safety with regards to training, Youth Protection, and sleeping arrangements. By your own admission a safe environment was provided for the boys and they had FUN thats what counts.

 

I guess the moral here is: when in doubt, go to your District or Senior Executive and get the answer in writing.

 

YIS

Mike