Pinewood Derby "rules"

[DanKroh]

This is part vent, part questioning what you do in your unit.

 

First the vent: This year, we started offering a trophy for the "adult" division, which also includes siblings (mostly Boy Scouts) who are over Cub Scout age. The trophy is going to be one of these where it is passed year to year to the new winner. Anway, the winner of the trophy this year was a Boy Scout who is the older son of the guy who runs the Pinewood (and his younger son was the grand winner in the entire Pack, and has won every year he's been in scouts, but that's another rant, and I digress). My problem with this is, he wasn't there. He was off at a merit badge college run by the Council. His parents registered his car for him (Mom is the committee chair, fwiw) in his absence.

 

Personally, I don't think that cars should be run in absentia, except possibly for extenuating circumstances, which I don't think this is.

 

Ok, now here's the question part: Does your pack allow cars to be entered for people who aren't there (and is there/should there be a different policy for cubs/young siblings vs. adult/older siblings)?

[ScoutNut]

The only reason I have ever seen for running a car of a person who is not physically present at the PWD, that makes any kind of sense at all, is when there is a District PWD and the Pack wants to make sure the boys car would have the opportunity to qualify for it.

 

We have no District PWD, and we also have no non-scout division. Our PWD is for the boys. To have fun working with their family on a project, to have fun racing their car, and to learn fair play and sportsmanship.

 

The boys bring their cars to check in & register. Besides the BS Den Chiefs running the track, the boys are the only ones who handle their cars.

 

What fun is it to have a parent run a car for an absent child? How can that child cheer on his car, and others, when they are not there? What can they learn?

 

In our Pack you must be present to race.

 

[msnowman]

Dan - this was our second year doing that same thing - a perpetual trophy for our open class, to be handed down from year to year.

 

We register each to car to whoever brings it thru the registration process. This gives the boys a chance to accept responsibility for their car. We had one painfully shy Web II make a car with dad but refuse to race it. No worries - Dad registers it in the open class and races under his name. Shy Web II is happy to see his car race - and even happier knowing he will never have to get up front to get a patch/trophy/certificate.

 

Sounds like BS Son built the car but mom registered it. Okay, so technically its now mom's car and she gets the trophy. It sits on the family mantlepiece for a year before coming back to the Pack. Ultimately someone registered and raced the car and it won.

 

Hopefully it ends there. Of course, this is the real world and that isn't likely, because what works for us prolly won't work for you (or the next pack, or the one after that).

 

Good luck and remember - you have a year to decide how to handle this the next time it happens...because you know it will.

 

YiS

Michelle

[AnaMaria]

Our pack doesn't have a rule to cover this, and I don't think it's come up in the 4 years I've been around.

 

At our district event, however, the boy does have to be present for his car to race.

 

Unless there's some extreme extenuating circumstance (appendicitis the day before the race, for instance, and not a family event mom and dad decide to attend at the last minute) I think that's the way it should be.

[Cubmaster Mike]

Int he past we have had something similar. A cub scout wanted to build a car with his father but was not going to be at the derby due to an out of town soccer tournament.

 

Since the Cub wanted to buld a car, we decided not to deprive him. The car was built and registered in his absence. It was raced and competed for design awards but was not allowed to win a speed trophy.

 

We had no compaints from his den or parents.

 

CMM

[DYB-Mike]

Hi Cubmaster Mike,

 

Im just curious about the rational you allowed the absent boys car to be registered, to race, and to be eligible for all awards except the speed trophy, which I assume would be the overall winner(s) of the race. Why make that exclusion?

 

I havent experienced the in absentia situation as yet but Im inclined to vote for letting the car participate. The boy has invested the time and effort to build the car and to put him in a position of having to choose between things that are important to him (as in your example, the out of town soccer game where his team might be depending on him) just doesnt seem right. Id feel even more so inclined if the boy had no choice, like illness or were going to Grandmas and thats that. I think his friends would understand and cheer the car on if they were so inclined.

 

I know life is unfair, but theyre just cub scouts! I guess Im just an old softee.

 

YIS

Mike

 

[DanKroh]

DYB-Mike,

 

I think I would also be inclined to let a Cub run a car without being present if there were extenuating circumstances, but what do you think about this case, where the person running in absentia is not a Cub, but a Boy Scout in the adult division. Especially in that case, where this is only one trophy to be won, and he won it. I have gotten a sense from a couple of the other adults who ran (and my own Boy Scout son, who had a car in the division as well), that they didn't feel it was right.

 

Just to make it clear, the Boy Scout knew about the conflict well in advance (i.e. before he began making the car), it's not something that came up at the last minute.

[AnaMaria]

My first response, I was really thinking about a scout, not a sibling/parent/etc. In that case, I would not allow someone in the "adult" or "other" division to race if they were not there, whatever the reason.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Just out of curiosity why are you awarding trophies (presumably paid for by the pack, perhaps from pack dues or fundraisers) to non-pack members?

 

Lose the trophy and part of this problem goes away. PWDs are chiefly for cub scouts. Any "open" races could be simply for bragging rights, without costing the pack money.

[DanKroh]

Lisabob asks: "Just out of curiosity why are you awarding trophies (presumably paid for by the pack, perhaps from pack dues or fundraisers) to non-pack members?"

 

It is one trophy, to be passed to the new winner each year. It's not like the pack is laying out a bunch of money each year to buy a bunch of trophies for parents and sibling Boy Scouts. We also award trophies to the younger siblings, even though technically, they are not pack members, either. If by "non-pack member", you mean someone who doesn't have a family member in the pack, that's not what's happening here.

 

The adult trophy is new this year, in response to a request by many parents to have one trophy for them. Personally, I don't have a problem with letting the parents have input into how the money they helped raise (or paid as dues) is spent.

 

"Lose the trophy and part of this problem goes away. PWDs are chiefly for cub scouts. Any "open" races could be simply for bragging rights, without costing the pack money."

 

I think part of the impetus for the adult trophy is that they evidently have a very competitive adult division with a trophy at the Council level derby, and the adults who have been in that liked the idea of the perpetual trophy for the pack. Personally, I've never entered my own car, and never will; it's enough of a challenge for me to help my kids with theirs. But there are enough other parents who feel differently.

[msnowman]

A trophy for the "open/adult/sibling class" doesn't have to be a bought one. Our Open Class Trophy is one that one of the woodworking dads made. He affixed 2 race cars (though not PWD cars) to the top, made a lovely base, etc. It cost the Pack nothing, but brings lots of smiles. On the back is room for each year's winner to put their name on w/ a Sharpie. For what its worth, we also race a "Vintage" class (cars from previous years, including one from the 50's). This class gets a returnable trophy too....that trophy is a "vintage" (IE-recycled) trophy donated from a long ago, previous member.

 

YiS

Michelle

[DYB-Mike]

Hi Dan,

 

Admittedly my response was geared towards the case of a cub and I had to give some thought to the scout/adult perspective, as we dont have classes of that sort at our Packs Derby.

 

I still would be inclined to let the car race. The scout obviously wanted to participate, he made the effort and built the car, and at least his conflicting event was something worthwhile.

 

Presumably you dont have a set rule in place that disallows in absentia racing. You could issue a rule next time around that clearly states that if you know you cant attend the race you cannot enter and any circumstances that arise later will be considered on a case-by-case basis. I would apply this rule only to adults, scouts, and siblings. I feel that the cubs should be allowed to race in all cases. Thats probably not going to solve all the problems but at least you can make a ruling in a similar situation with a clearer conscience and hopefully minimal controversy.

 

I also agree with you that if the adult leaders and parents want an adult race then why not as they are the workers and fiscal supporters of the pack. Like you, I have no desire to race; Im quite happy racing vicariously through my cub.

 

Cub scouting is supposed to be a family thing and if the pack has the desire and the resources to put on a multi-category Pinewood Derby then go for it. I suppose its good publicity for the pack and including scouts also helps to build stronger pack-troop relations, which are beneficial to the webelos. And, of course, if you are running a snack bar thats just that many more people to contribute to the pack coffers!

 

YIS,

Mike

 

[packsaddle]

'absentia'...it could be worse. Early on, I witnessed one of the most disastrous district PWDs ever. One pack had quite a number of cars that had had quite a bit of parental investment, wink, wink. Many of those boys were allowing others to run their cars in absentia. The district rules had nothing against it so I just did the usual weigh-in stuff and then stood back to watch. The district guy had all the competing cars quarantined on the floor near one end of the room...but near the bleachers of the school gymn where we did the competitions.

I watched as the boys who were running the cars in absentia: 1) forgot whose belonged to who, 2) ran at least one of them for multiple boys (disqualification), and then 3) in the end, they were so rambunctious that they accidentally stepped on three of the cars, completely crushing them.

I was soooooo glad I wasn't in charge. I packed up my balance and like the senate after the anthrax mailing, I headed for the hills.

[Ekmiranda]

Hi all,

Well it seems that you are kind of stuck in between a rock and a hard place.

 

(and his younger son was the grand winner in the entire Pack, and has won every year he's been in scouts, but that's another rant, and I digress). My problem with this is, he wasn't there. He was off at a merit badge college run by the Council. His parents registered his car for him (Mom is the committee chair, fwiw) in his absence.

 

Mom is the CC and the younger Scout has won every year

I have beeen in almost the same situation. In the rules it stated that if the Cub is not present the car may run but "Can not run as a Quilifying car"

In the situation that I was in we had this younger scout win every year from Tiger all the way up to W II. It's a rough situation and should be addressed. Ithe car that I am talking about was not built at all by the child. It was very clear that the father did the entire car. Down to the paint and was modified above the rules. The problem was that these modifacations were not picked up or over looked by the judges. At that point the car can only be thrown out of the race by the CM and the CC. But they both have to agree. Everyone knew who was going to win and that the car was modified the said parent was also the one who was holding the track. In this case the CC and CM could not say anything as we are husband and wife. What I did do was let the parent know that he was caught and that the car should be disquilified and pointed out the modifacations. But for the sake of the Child's embarisment nothing was going to be done.

Thankfully the UC was also present and watched what went on. Did nothing just watched. Later in the week I found out that the parent went to council and demanded that I be removed from my position and also removed from scouting as an unfit leader. He was also backed by the Assistant W II who is his best friend. Nothing was done to me and nothing was even said. The UC and COR sat with him and just paides him lip serveses.

 

What I am getting at is weight your options and really think about it. You might think about just letting the cubs run in the race and have a completly different arena and time for the older scouts and parents. Always remember it is only about the Cubs.(P.S. I am sure you know that otherwise you would not be upset packs should have more pasionate leaders as you)

 

YIS EKM