Cheating at the Pinewood Derby!

[fleetfootedfox]

Some wheels that come in the kits are just bad. So, forcing people to use the wheels you give them may not always be fair either. And what if they accidentally mess up the parts that you gave them? Are they just outta luck then?

 

Anyway, you might be able to force somebody to use the parts you give them, but you can't police how they build the car. So, now the guy who would've bought the car on ebay for $100 will instead spend that much or more on tools and the result will be the same. The cars that get the most adult attention (whether the boy is doing the actual work or not) will be the ones that win.

[evmori]

I was at a local craft store with my wife the other day & they were selling pinewood cars that were custom cut with plastic additions that could be added and on the package it stated "BSA axles & wheels will fit".

 

When I was with a Pack, we gave the boys pinewood cars as a Christmas present. That way, everyone had the same amount of time to make their car! You will always have those dads who feel their son has to win.

[Lisabob]

Scouter760, I'm pleased to tell you that your last statement is not always true, though probably it is most of the time.

 

We live in the auto-alley area. GM, Ford, etc. are all here and a lot of dads design and build real cars for a living. (Or anyway, they used to - now they're all laid off.) PWD is serious for some of these guys. When my son was a cub there was a dad in the pack who really went whole-hog on his kids' cars. I don't know for sure whether the kids did ANY of the work, but I do know the dad spent a whole lot of time researching, testing, and building cars that his boys then raced. Most years his kids came in on top, it is true. To make matters worse, this guy was an insufferable braggart and his kids were well-known bullies.

 

Anyway, in their last year of cubs, my son built a car that was pretty basic. Just a wedge shape with a cool paint job. He wasn't expecting to win, but he did, hands down. This other dad then pulled out his champion car from when HE was a kid. "Nobody ever beats this one!" He said. My son's car beat it too. What was the secret? Apparently it was just the right balance of weights, nothing fancy, although my son was pretty convinced the paint job had a lot to do with it. It was probably wrong of me to feel satisfaction in this, but I admit I did.

 

Anyway about the cheating. We too got to a point where we told people they could only use the cars issued to them by the pack. We had spare parts if things went wrong and someone needed extra wheels, etc. It is unfortunate that things got to the point where we felt it was necessary to at least try to curb the cheating. A lot of scout parents seem to think that the law of the pack (cubs) and scout oath (boy scouts) apply only to children though, as if repeating a phrase will have a deeper impression on the kids than what they see their parents doing day in and day out for their whole lives.

[Basementdweller]

We always have extra wheels because of lost, broken or just flat bad, Same for axles.

 

We don't just leave them hanging.

 

Far as spending more on power tools. We bring the shop to meeting. I also have several work nights at my home and several other adult hold shop nights.

 

The tools parable comes to mind as well Teach a man to fish and...........Teach a man to use a credit card and........

 

 

Of course there is a lot of different ways to do things..........None is right.

[Twocubdad]

Wow, what an eye opener. I got on eBay and searched pinewood derby cars and got a real education. We're in the middle of NASCAR country, so like the Michigan guys we have a lot of dads who build really fast cars for a living (or, like the Big Three guys, used to as the economy has hit NASCAR too.)

 

While Cubmaster, I came to understand that -- as in the real world -- the process was that folks would push the rules until the rules had to be updated. Our main rule was that all the parts had to be official BSA, not necessarily the one kit you were assigned, but all from BSA (you could get another kit of you totally screw up the first one.)

 

But I would have never thought -- until I looked at eBay -- that people would do something so unethical as to go out and buy a ringer car.

 

Interestingly I met my sister-in-law at business thing yesterday and she was telling me about my nephew's first PWD. The way she described the winning car looked just like "physics teacher" car on eBay.

 

[MrDave660]

My worst experience as Cubmaster has been the pinewood derby. We had a guy bring in an EBay car but he was disqualified per our rules. Another boy asked his father which car was his. The CC heard that and the car did not race. Many others look too nice for a tiger to make, but you never know. My son took it seriously and sanded until it was somooth. He found out that if he used sandible auto primer, he got to spray paint more, so he was able to get the paint job very smooth. (notice, I said "he was able.")

 

We print out drivers licenses for the boys and there is a statement on the back that says "I promise that I made this car myself." The parents and boys knew about this in the beginning, so it was in the back of their heads while making the car.

 

I was struggling with too much parent involvement in the cars, so I came up with a "Geezer Derby." The parents make their own cars and race them at my house in the evening of race day. It is an adult event with no children, and not a scouting event, so everyone brings appetizers and refreshments. They have to follow the same dimensional rules as the boys. We have awards just like the boys. The most coveted (to award, not receive) is the "Car most likely made by a Cub Scout." Not only do the parents let the boys work more on their cars, but the leadership of the Pack has become a more close knit group. Everyone wins.

 

We are going to hold a "no rules" derby for the Boy Scouts next year. They still want to make cars. The only requirements are that they start with the block of wood, it fits the length and width requirement for the track, and it weighs 5 oz. They can do what ever they want with it after that.

[fleetfootedfox]

BTW, Home Depot can match paint color. So, do you think Mr. Ebay doesn't know that?

[Basementdweller]

Sure they can match paint, but not the kind we use. If he wants to cheat that bad, let him cheat. The could probably replicate the marking we make on the bottom of wood block.

 

Lets face it, we are just trying to keep honest people honest.

 

[gcnphkr]

if you really want to put a stop to cheating make a rule that only stock wheels may be used. That each scout has his wheels for weighing purposes and that they should do the basics for the wheels (not really much with the current wheels, unlike the brads from long ago). At check in the wheels are turned in, mixed and redistributed. This will pretty much make the race a level playing field.

[gpraceman2]

evmori - "So does the Pack have a rules for the Pinewood that state no pre-built cars are to be used & a new car must be used each year? If not, no cheating is occurring."

 

A very good point. I do think many rules are poorly written and open up these avenues for people to go against the intent of the rules, if not the letter of them.

 

OKC_Scouter - "Unfortunately, with the exception of the rule "Cars should be built by the Cub Scouts" (which can be difficult to prove at best), there is nothing in the rule sheet included in each derby kit that would disqualify an engineered car bought on eBay. This is why units should always distribute their own official rules well in advance of the race."

 

I agree that the rules in the box are quite inadequate, yet for many packs, that is all they go by! They do not put out their own set of rules.

 

"Cars should be built by the Cub Scouts" - I would hope that no pack would have their rules written in this way! When Don Murphy founded Pinewood Derby, he intended it as project where a child works with an adult. It would be better to state that the child should do their fair share of the building of their car (again - within their physical and mental capabilities). The adult is there to teach, manage the project, and to finish up what the child is not able to do. Of course, managing the project can be a challenge, due to a child's short attention span. Tasks can be broken up and spread across time to help with that.

 

 

For some other ideas on keeping eBay cars out of your race, see this Derby Talk thread, http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2520

[Twocubdad]

I think we should all go on eBay and flame this guy -- flood him with a ton of emails about how unethical it is to sell ringer cars. Or maybe we could come up with a PWD Racer's Code of Ethics, have a bunch of them engraved and sell them on eBay at all price points and with the sales closing daily. That way, everyone who searches for PWD cars on eBay will get hit with pages of our Code of Ethics for sale.

 

What, this guy couldn't figure out how to make money helping folks cheat on their taxes or convert guns to full-auto?

[gpraceman2]

Twocubdad - "I think we should all go on eBay and flame this guy"

 

If only it were that easy. It is not just one guy, it is quite a few. Even one of the major online derby suppliers started carrying fully and mostly built cars.

 

Anyways, I've had discussions with many past and present sellers and they will try to justify what they do in anyway they can. Some have sent me some rather nasty replies and basically told me to mind my own business. No U.S. laws are being broken, so eBay is not going to do anything about it. IMO, if the cheating aspect bothered these guys at all, then they wouldn't be selling these cars.

 

I do like your PWD Racer's Code of Ethics idea. It would be nice if BSA would include something like that in the "rules in the box".

[fleetfootedfox]

gpraceman2 hit the nail on the head. The BSA doesn't make the rules clear enough out of the box. On the other hand, a couple years ago I noticed they sold in the Scout Shop a car pre-cut to a wedge shape. So, how can you say a pre-cut car is against the rules when the BSA was selling one? They currently sell a book of "Pinewood Derby Speed Secrets" which covers a lot of stuff that clearly a kid is not going to do by himself but will require an adult to do. Power tools, modifying the wheels, etc. Pictures in the book show an adult's hands doing everything.

 

I think making everybody turn in their wheels and redistributing them before the race sounds like a terrible idea. Then it is just pure luck as to who gets the best wheels and you might as well just toss a coin and hand out the trophies randomly.

 

Another possibility would be to drop the pretense of having the boys do all the work. Just announce it as a father/son (or mother/son) project and let them do whatever they want and have fun and not be so serious about it.

 

 

[gpraceman2]

I'm not fond of the pre-cut kits, regardless of who sells them. However, I am not against them. I'd rather have someone get one of those than purchase a fully or mostly built car. There is still plenty to do to get the car in running order.

 

Besides, I have heard of many workshops that have used bandsaws to cut out the cars. It ends up being the adult cutting it out and then handing it to the kid to start sanding. I certainly would not have the kids use a bandsaw for safety reasons! One church I attended was paranoid about liability, so they would not let the kids use even a scrollsaw for their cars (Awana Grand Prix). Letting someone else do the cutting is really not much different than buying a pre-cut car body.

 

Many packs do not even offer workshops (really sad). Again, I'd rather have someone get a pre-cut kit, since they can at least finish it off with simple tools, some sandpaper, and paint. Not many people have a scrollsaw, bandsaw, or even a coping saw.

[Stosh]

I know of one gentleman that had 3 boys in Cubs over the years and as an engineer, he laid out the plans for his boys to build their own cars. Whatever "secret" he used, it was effective. The boys were expected to build a new car each year. The boys always won hands down. Once his last boy finally aged out of Webelos II he burned the plans, even though he was offered a pretty penny for them. So it can be done, thus the spirit of the game.

 

Stosh