aol dilemma

[dibbus1987]

I have 2 boys in my pack, brothers, that joined this year as Webelos.

One is in 5th grade and one is in 4th grade. The fifth grader has

already turned 11, the fourth grader turned 10 in February. Here's

the problem. They both have been working hard together and have just

about finished the requirements for Arrow of Light. That is, of

course, except for the age requirement on the younger brother "be an

active member of your den for 6 months since completing 4th grade or 6

months after your 10th birthday". The parents are insistent that they

both graduate to Boy Scouts together, and I can't see any way for this

to be possible. We are having our AOL ceremony in April. Correct me

if I am wrong, but the older brother cannot "hang around" after he

finishes fifth grade waiting for his brother to turn 10-1/2 in August,

nor can his younger brother waive the age requirement and cross over

with his brother in April. They want them to get their AOL together.

I don't know what to tell them. I said I'd check with our council,

but I doubt they would waive a requirement for the sake of convenience.

 

[scottteng]

"Boy Scouting, one of the traditional membership divisions of the BSA, is available to boys who have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10, or who are 11, but not yet 18 years old "

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts.aspx

"Remind Webelos Scouts that they can join a troop any time after they turn 10 and have completed the Arrow of Light requirements."

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/patrolplus.aspx

 

Looks like younger brother will meet his six months since his 10th birthday in August. Why can't older brother hang around if your pack is like most the summer is just a couple of events anyway and most of those turn into family ones. If he wants to wait for brother let him do it. Or alternatively if they both insist on going to a troop let em go then the SM can be the bad guy if he is so inclined. I would not go so far as to award him his AOL until the requirements met but let him take his book to the SM and show him the completed requirements. If these boys had waited a year and shown up on a troops doorstep most troops would snap both up without a second thought.

[NeilLup]

Hello Dibbus,

 

My understanding is that the older boy CAN remain in Cub Scouting until the Pack reregisters. Assuming that your Pack doesn't reregister during the summer, he can stay a Cub Scout and both of them can become Boy Scouts together.

 

Suggesting that the Pack and/or Troop "fudge" the Arrow of Light requirements is very inappropriate. They are the way that they are for a reason, and the reason is to ensure that boys who become Boy Scouts are old enough and mature enough to enjoy the experience.

 

It also might be appropriate to talk with the parents about the wisdom of handcuffing the boys together in this way. That is very Cub Scouting like, but is not the Boy Scouting way. Each boy should move at his own pace.

[Bob White]

A boy may stay in Webelos until he is 11 years old or graduates from 5the Grade. The older brother has turned 11. He must now leave the Webelos Den.

 

Ref. The Cub Scout Leader Handbook, page 22-1

[Stosh]

As long as the boy is in 5th grade he can stay in Cub Scouts, he is not kicked out when he turns 11. If he wishes he can join Boy Scouts, but the "OR" in the requirement allows him to stay until he completes the 5th grade. The reason for the wording as such is to insure the boys of a group staying together irregardless of their age. A boy can be "held back" a year because of the date of his birthday, but if he isn't there's the possibility of a whole year's difference between members of the same class. My birthday is September 20th and I went off to college at age 17. My daughter's birthday is September 23 and she spent her whole senior year of high school aged 18. If a scout is outed at a certain age, he could in fact be asked to leave Cubbing a whole year before his buddies just because of when his birthday falls. I have never heard of a boy being asked to leave Cubbing just because he turned 11 years old. Any child held back a year would be unjustly penalized because of this.

 

After looking at this situation and working the math all the way around. I don't think the two boys are going to cross over into Scouting together regardless of what the parents might want. The older boy will have left 5th grade and received his AOL in April and the younger boy will not have enough tenure at that point. Even if they wait until June (end of 5th grade) the younger boy will still not have sufficient tenure for AOL.

 

The question I would ask is why can't each boy have his own time in the limelight? After all, they are a year apart in age, they have different friends, different school grades and different lives. Surely they can have different AOL ceremonies.

 

Stosh

(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[evmori]

He can stay but once he earns his AOL, he is done with Cub Advancement.

 

I sorta wonder what the motivation is for both to advance together?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Check with your Council's registrar. According to ours, 11 or out of the 5th grade means whichever comes first.

[dibbus1987]

Motivation to move them up together? It's likely convenient for the parents to be able to take them to the same place at the same time. The younger son was in my den and they decided to move him to his brother's den so they wouldn't have to attend 2 meetings.

[LongHaul]

Although a Webelos Scout reaching the age of 11 or completing fifth grade is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the Pack for six months after his 11Th birthday or until he completes the fifth grade whichever is later. That's what the Webelos Leader Book says. So if the 11 year old graduates 5th grade in June, what is it that the Pack does in July and August that would present a problem with the 11 year old being there? The ceremony acknowledgeing crossing over from Cubs to Boy Scouts is a ceremony that's all. I've been to a lot of Eagle ceremonies where the Boy was 19 already. What the 11 year old can not do is earn advancement, that's all. LongHaul

[dibbus1987]

The older boy will be 11-1/2 in June, the younger one won't be 10-1/2 until August. That's the problem.

[Gunny2862]

What part of throwing the problem to the joining Scoutmaster is courteous or kind to him?

 

What part of it is kind to the Scout who won't be awarded his AOL?

 

In what way is it helpful to the Scouts or his parents?

 

How is fudging the requirements by anybody Trustworthy?

 

I'd love to join them but, aren't I constrained to 11 year olds, and 10 year olds with an AOL?

Look, if the parents won't follow this rule then they'll most likely constantly be on my back to shortcut the rest of the program too. Which could destroy it for everyone else. I wouldn't take them in the situation described - although I would take them as soon as the younger Scout had his time in. For my understanding of the rules he doesn't have to wait a year and a motivated Scout with motivated parents Could catch up. It would mean that you would might want to do an additional AOL ceremony for him, we'd do a Crossover for One,out of the normal time frame, but I understand that not everyone will. Ask the joining SM he might be willing to do it the way I would.

[evmori]

What do the boys want? If they want to move up together, great! But if it is strictly a convenience for mom & dad, then to me, that's the wrong reason.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[LongHaul]

I still don't see the problem here folks. As long as the older boy is not asking to be allowed to earn advancement after graduating 5th grade. Cub Scouting is a family based program siblings attend Pack Meetings and often are present at Summer Time Pack activities. Again I ask what is the Pack doing in July and August that presents a problem? So the older boy is not a Cub and not a Boy Scout for 60 days are you telling me that you are going to stop his recognition ceremony? How is that in anyway a benefit to the Boy? It's about the youth. This family is not asking for that much here, they are not asking for a free bee nor alteration of advancement rules (as long as the younger isn't advanced early) I didn't see anyone screaming foul when Stosh posted that his Webelos 1 group had earned their AOL. No one brought up the age problem or grade problem. 20 pins in 12 months and Stosh implied that they were offered twice. Why now such a Draconian approach to an 11+, 5th grade graduate chumming around for 60 days till younger brother qualifies and they can have 1 ceremony instead of 2? What else is going on here?

LongHaul

[dibbus1987]

I just don't think it's fair to ask the older boy to give up Boy Scout camp, or boy scout activities over the summer while the rest of his den moves on to the troop (in April), just to wait for his brother. I feel that it would be discouraging for him to do nothing for 3-4 months over the summer. Sure, our pack has activities, but we have actual awards earning and den meetings in the summer, which he would be ineligible for. His younger brother could attend day and resident camp also. I am not even sure we could award AOL to someone who is over 11-1/2? And isn't it REQUIRED of us to award boys at the NEXT pack meeting, not make them wait? To clarify, the parents are asking not only that the boys crossover to boy scouts together, but be awarded their AOL at the same time.

[dibbus1987]

And, yes, the family IS asking for the younger son to be awarded AOL early!