How much time does it take?

[Chippewa29]

Need some opinions. My troop is starting to mature, but is still very young (all but one Scout are 13 or younger). On our last campout, the scouts planned pancakes for breakfast but forgot a griddle. Therefore, it took them two hours to make, eat, and cleanup breakfast. It pushed back the schedule so we started the hike later. Our previous SM, who was on his second campout with the troop in over a year, made a big stink at the next committee meeting about how the kids didn't do things correctly, they need better training, etc. A bunch of the parents now think that the adults need to be standing right over the Scouts while they do their cooking and cleanup. I feel that the Scouts have been taught how to do things correctly (we've spent several troop meetings on the subject and done a lot of camping where things were done correctly, mostly when parents weren't around) and just need more practice. However, I myself am getting a little frustrated at how the Scouts have done these things correctly before, but regress when there are lots of adults around. The adults and youth cook separately.

 

I've seen our troop in the past where it took several years for the Scouts to become really proficient and efficient at cooking. I think the kids just need more practice and will get better with more time (I tend to think the kids can run themselves if allowed and expected to do it). The other adults think that they need to take more control over things and more closely supervise the Scouts.

 

Any advice?

[Bob White]

I'm with you Chip,

 

Not that training more training isn't a good thing, but you don't want to increase adult suprervision for something like this.

 

Perhaps they need positive motivation to finish cooking sooner, like if you are done by XX:XX then we will go __________!

 

Perhaps they need more practice. How about making a gae of it? Have a race, have a pancake flipping contest, have a taste test with prizes.

 

More than likely they need to be left alone. If the other adults don't like seeing them taking so long, tell them not to look.

 

You are on the right track, stay the course.

 

Bob

[FScouter]

I would bet that the boys won't forget the griddle next time. But they might forget something else. If the parents want to get involved, ask them to write up a check list that could be presented to the PL or SPL. That would be helpful without doing the entire job.

[eisely]

The best way boys learn is by making these kinds of relatively harmless errors. I agree strongly with the other responders who believe that stronger adult intervention would be a mistake.

 

Having said that, the problem appears to be getting chores done promptly in general. There are times when adult intervention during a serious expedition may be necessary if a particular boy or boys are unduly holding up the process. Excessive delay can create additional risks.

 

But the best way to get these guys to get themselves organized is to let them make mistakes where the cost may be lost time for more fun type activities. Sometimes the best speed is boy speed, not adult speed.

[Double Eagle]

I remember when we didn't have stoves as a youth. The half burnt-half raw pancakes were great. I think the character one gets from doing things their way is the best. Fire cooking seemed to always produce the same results. Half burnt or raw. Heck, for years I thought my mom didn't know how to cook after not burning our food. Let them do it without your help, it'll mean more to them They will soon forget the bad stuff, unless you do the "let me show you how" thing. They will get soon enough, especially if your adults have the same budget as them. They will say "next time we will make ..." Good luck(This message has been edited by Double Eagle)

[OldGreyEagle]

We had a winter cabin campout a few years back, seems when the boys went to start breakfast they found they had stoves, griddle, etc, but no cooking utensils, only plastic forks and spoons. The scoutmaster stepped back to see what would happen. One of the kids, now an Eagle, ducktapped a pyramid of forks to gether to make a spatula. The first one had the ends melt rather quickly, but the scouts learned if they turned the heat down it would work. They also learned if they cooked with lower heat, the pancakes turned out better as well. (until then our stoves had only two settings, off and full on) at least thats what the scouts thought) Not only do the boys talk about the campout and the ducktapped "thing" they always make sure they have plenty of spatula's, serving spoons, etc.

 

BTW The ducktapped thing is in the troops hall of fame along with a few trophy's from various events, it virtually screams "BRING UTENSILS" to all who see it.

 

The adults were ready to bail and "go to town" to buy utensils, but the SM held firm and a great experience was had by all

[sctmom]

I want to meet the adults who have NEVER forgotten anything on a campout or vacation! It's just not a vacation unless you forgot something!

 

More adult supervision will not help. They will eventually learn, at least most of them will. Ask the adults how did the boys learn to tie their shoes --- by doing it over and over and over until they got it right.

 

[kd6rxy]

I think FScouter is on the right track, but maybe you could also try having the boys do a reflection activity about the campout trip and have them produce their own checklist of things not to forget. Teach them the responsibility. The parents who went on the trip could also be involved in the reflection to guide the boys so that most things get on the list.

 

I also agree with Bob White, let there be consequences for them taking as long as they want. On our last campout, we had to skip cracker barrel (peach cobbler) because the boys started dinner late (the fish were biting like you wouldn't believe) and didn't get cleaned up until nearly lights out. The boys were told that would happen, but they still took nearly two hours to get cleaned up!

 

Old grey eagles point is good too. Our boys forgot the ketsup and mustard (we had hot dogs for one meal). So the boys roasted the first dog and ate them without anything. Then they got in the food box and patrol box and found this and that. The rest of the hot dogs were "fried" in the lid of a dutch oven in a concoction known to no man, but the hot dogs actully tasted pretty good. The comment was, "Who needs ketsup and mustard? I am sure it will be remembered next time!

 

[ScouterPaul]

Isn't problem solving part of leadership? It is amazing what our young men will accomplish if we just get out of their way!!!

[ASM7]

The hardest lesson for me to learn when I came from Cub leader to Scout leader was to be able to step back and let things happen as long as there was not a safety issue. It's the same for the parents of newly crossed over scouts. We tell the parents that we are event driven not time driven. Shoot, I don't think our scouts could put up a tent in the daytime. The transition from having things done for you and doing it yourself is painful. I agree that check lists are great, but the scouts do them and not the parents. I detest going around at camporee and seeing leaders doing all the cooking and cleaning with scouts running around playing. The best way for the parents to help is to become a member of the leader patrol. Our leaders do things as a patrol and try to be an example to the scouts. We have a lot of fun and it's amazing how some of our ideas get repeated in the scout patrols.

[ozemu]

Chippewa29 you seem to have a problem with your adults. You refer to your previous SM (part time it would seem) and mention that the boys regress when adults are around.

 

Is there a legacy here in the adult perception of what is happening? ie is there a self fulfilling prophecy of "the boys will stuff up breakfast again just watch" and then otherwise unimportant mistakes become "proof"? If so ASM7's adult patrol example may help.

 

You may also need to explain the principles and OUR collective experience in the issue. There seems to be a concensus here that your boys are pretty normal in their progression and that the mistakes mean that they are learning.

 

It has been said on other threads recently that the problems most of have are more with the parents than with the boys. Scouting methods work - self reliance is the aim not fluffy pancakes and a perfect timetable. But we all have parents hanging around who can't stand back and let the learning progress at boy speed (I like that phrase eisely).

[papabear]

The guiding factor here is one thing, SAFETY. If everyone is safe, back off and let the boys develope the way BP envisioned they would and how they will if we stop doing for them. It is very difficult at times especialy for newer leaders who came from Cub Scouts or are new to Scouting, our "parental" instincts are very strong and are hard to overide at times, but it needs to be done. A Patrol who forgets something needs to become inventive and overcome. If the pancake is over/under cooked , if they miss a meal, no one will be "hurt" they will still be "safe" and an important lesson will be learned. I do recommend the recommendation an other has made, it was always our policy in our Troops, to review a campout or activity the first meeting after the event. Each Patrol would meet, review and then present to the Troop, it was an effort to learn and to share and maybe avert a similar thing happening to another. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. MOST IMPORTANT IS SAFETY! a missed meal or burnt meal will not harm anyone....

[Chippewa29]

I'm about ready to bang my head against the wall. The more I think about this, the more frustrating it is. Back in February, myself and one of the dads took four Scouts camping at our local council camp. The dad spent a good part of the day Saturday off in a corner of camp working on a report for work (no big deal, we needed to make sure we were two deep). It was the fewest adults we've had on a campout in years. Something funny happened. The Scouts got things done on their own without my help and did it in a reasonable time. It was arguably our four best Scouts, but still, they got things done without having myself or the other adult get involved. However, on the next couple of campouts, when we had half a dozen adults along, it took the kids forever to do things. Then, one or two adults complains about the lack of efficiency, and I'm having to defend the idea of the boys learning how to do things by experience (we've shown them how in the past) and not having the adults jump in whenever something little goes wrong.

 

I am a firm believer that you can (can, not always) learn more from your failures and making mistakes than you do from your successes. I believe that you teach the kids, then stand back and let them experience the learning for themselves. A couple of the adults in my troop have accused me of setting the kids up for failure and that you damage their self-esteem by doing that. I believe that when you don't let a kid do things for themselves, they have no self-esteem to damage. As has been said before, if safety is not an issue, then they are ok. I've never let a kid get hurt before. However, these parents think the kids need to be protected constantly. I've asked them several times "At what point are you going to let them grow up and do things on their own?"

 

Another example of this is when we are out on a campout. I have no problem letting the kids go off on a hike for an hour or two as a group. Usually, we have a fifteen year old Eagle Scout with them and at worst, several competent thirteen year olds. These kids have been hiking many times and know how to stay safe, especially when there are a half dozen or so of them. The area where we camp doesn't have the worry of them running into strangers that are a problem (usually, if we run into strangers, it is another Scout group or a church group or something of that nature). I think some of their best learning experiences will come when they are alone as a group (no adults) and have to rely on themselves. If they get a little lost (once again, the places we camp aren't filled with danger), they will learn better how to remember their way in the woods (besides, I've taught them some ways to remember their way back). We didn't learn our way around by using a GPS system or having a guide constantly, but rather by using what we learned and being resourceful.

 

Wow, I got that out of my system. Anyone have any solutions (other than training, as our next one doesn't come again until September)?

[dan]

Chippewa29

How about printing this thread out and sharing it with the committee?

There are many experienced and knowledgeable scouters here that agree with you.

I can only imagine the years of experience we are pulling from here!

But be careful make sure the committee is open minded enough to take suggestions from outside (from the troop)!

Good Luck, and fight the good and brave battle. (Its to bad it has to be a battle).

 

[OldGreyEagle]

BTW, to the original question of "how much time does it take?"

 

College, Freshman year, American History, first mid-term, essay test. One student asked the question "How long do the answers have to be" the professor's respnse "As long as it is complete".

 

So, how much times does it take? As long as it takes. This will be different depending on the enviroment and "random operators (read parents)"