Webelos left behind

[Oak Tree]

I'm with RememberSchiff. The lesson the boy should learn is that he doesn't get the AoL if he hasn't earned it. But I really dislike the no-man's land in between March and June where a boy is effectively too old for Cub Scouts and officially too young for Boy Scouts. Hanging around the pack often isn't a real option. There's no den left.

 

Depending on when the boy's birthday is, he may or may not be eligible to join without the AoL. I don't like the accidental punishment for boys who are younger in the grade. And, based on what I've seen from National, I think they would err on the side of keeping the boy in Scouting.

 

I'd interpret this rule as having 'complete fifth grade' meaning 'complete fifth grade to the point of crossover.'

 

This is similar to the question of what to do with boys who are held back in school. Technically they should repeat their Tiger year (or whatever year), but that doesn't seem like the right way to go from the perspective of the boy.

[evmori]

Meet age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

 

Minimum age if AOL earned - 10.

Minimum age if AOL not earned 11.

 

These are National rules. Don't think local councils can alter them. Does anyone know if they can?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

Well Ed I've already given you my statement that our council HAS altered them on specific occasions. A good friend and fellow Wood Badger took over a troop in dire need of an SM, to prevent it from folding. She did this at council's explicit request. Her one condition was that the webelos den (including her son) that she was leading at the time be allowed to cross over early so that she did not have to choose between cubbing and boy scouting (she didn't feel she could do both at the same time and couldn't secure a replacement webelos leader). Council granted her request and those boys became boy scouts prior to meeting the national age/grade/rank requirements. Perhaps they ought not to have done so, but they did do it.

 

However, if you want to pursue further, let's start another thread instead of continuing to hijack this one.

[LongHaul]

He is not high-jacking this thread Liasabob it is exactly where I had hoped it would go. The DE made the statement that National considers a boy to have graduated 5th grade as of January 1st. for the purpose of crossover. I had never heard of such a thing so I started this thread to see if anyone else had any similar experience. I had never heard of such a thing and personally I have never seen anything from National which says this. My worry is the ever discussed insurance myth(?) that these boys will not be covered if anything really expensive happens.

Also if Scout Net is so date and number sensitive how can it accept a registration that doesn't comply agewise?

LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[evmori]

Thanks LongHaul! I was just pointing out that because it was done doesn't make it right. Even it was done for a good reason. There are more issues than crossing over like you pointed out.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

OK LongHaul, I just didn't want to get too far off on some tangent that wasn't of interest to you. To be honest I have no idea how scoutnet fit in to the scenario I described. So I'm willing to imagine that this could have been a "local option" of sorts and in that regard Ed might be correct. However, I know it happened and I know that the council pro's gave their official blessing.

 

In our area, our DE has told me that National uses June 1st, not January 1st, as the standard "graduation" date, although if schools have an earlier graduation (say, in May in some parts of the country) then that is acceptable too. This comes up most frequently in recruiting new Tiger cubs rather than with boy scouts but I'd think the same general philosophy would apply in both cases (we recruit kindergarten boys in late spring with an official joining date of June 1). I have never heard anyone else assert that Jan 1st is the graduation point. Is it possible that your DE mis-spoke, or mis-heard June/January somewhere? I'd agree that's just really odd as a standard policy.

[Oak Tree]

The BSA is not going to prevent you from registering these boys.

 

They'll take kindergartners and register them as Tigers. They will take fifth-graders and register them as Boy Scouts, whether or not they are 11 or have their Arrow of Light (which they often can't accurately report anyway). They will let you register first graders, who are repeating first grade, as Wolves. There are any number of special circumstances where there could be a valid reason to bend the normal rules (another example - special needs), and the system is quite flexible.

 

I say to err on the side of the boy.

[Beavah]

My worry is the ever discussed insurance myth(?) that these boys will not be covered if anything really expensive happens.

 

Liability insurance covers the unit, not individual boys. Covers the unit even if the boy isn't registered, is a guest, etc.

 

The optional limited health insurance coverage does have a difference in premium between cubs and boy scouts. That's only based on program of registration, though. Doesn't affect anything here. If young lads are enrolled in Boy Scouts, then next recharter/year they pay the Boy Scouting premium.

 

Functionally, the council is authorized by its charter from National to enroll members. There's quite a bit of discretion there, includin' the ability to authorize members or whole units of members outside the age range.

 

B

 

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

So Scout net will not reject an application for a 10 year old to join a troop? When I spoke to the pros in the council nest to mine they said it would and the only way to enroll this boy at 10 is with the AOL. As for the insurance thing I was under the impression that "guest" was a short term item say one or two outings but not 6 months.

LongHaul

[John-in-KC]

LH,

 

Although I would hope someone at National runs an audit log on datafields such as birthdate being changed... at the end of the day, ScoutNet is a database, and a new birthdate isn't much more than 10 keystrokes/mouse clicks from completion.

 

I recently wrote a Congressman in my State who is not my congresscritter. His database isolated by ZIP code constituents. I got past it by inputting a ZIP code in his district.

[LongHaul]

John-in-KC that works unless you are trying to transfer registration of someone already in the data base. You can't change a Webelos DOB any more than you could change a Life Scouts DOB to get him more time to complete Eagle. There are ways to get around all this we could just put in paperwork that says this scout earned his AOL but not award it and things would be fine but the message being sent would be wrong. As others have said if this boy does not stay with his group we are going to lose him but once we start altering paper work to "save" the boy where do we stop?

LongHaul

[Oak Tree]

I don't personally use Scoutnet, but my experience with my council is that they will take a 10-year old fifth grader and register him as a Boy Scout whether or not he has the Arrow of Light.

 

The computer program could be written any number of ways and I can only speculate - but because of the flexibility that is required, I'm guessing the tool does not prevent this type of registration. I know that my council does not prevent it.

[evmori]

Although I would hope someone at National runs an audit log on datafields such as birthdate being changed... at the end of the day, ScoutNet is a database, and a new birthdate isn't much more than 10 keystrokes/mouse clicks from completion.

 

Just cause you can doesn't mean you should. A Scout is trustworthy.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[BrentAllen]

LH,

We hold a special AOL/Cross-over ceremony that is separate from the B & G. At B & G, the Webelos IIs graduate from the Pack, on March 1 this year. Our cross-over is on March 4.

 

At the AOL/Cross-over, there are 2 separate ceremonies, but the average Joe wouldn't really notice it. The OA conducts the whole shootin' match. AOL is first, and the boys who earned it go through; those who didn't sit off to the side, without being obvious. There is a slight break at the end of the AOL ceremony, and the boys crossing over are mixed in for the Cross-over ceremony. So, a boy can still be part of the overall show even if he didn't earn AOL.

 

As for a boy not eligible to cross over at that time due to age, I would let him go ahead with the ceremony with his den mates. As SM, I would just hold is application until he is eligible, and allow him to visit the Troop as if he were a Web II visiting. There isn't any rule that states how many times a Web II can visit. That's how I would handle it.

 

As for registering Kindergarteners, we conduct a Spring Tiger drive, involving a presentation to all K's at school and an open house that evening for the parents. This is in early May. We hold the paperwork until June 1 because we have been told that is when they can officially register. We have a summer program, so we want them to go ahead and join and participate. Makes fall registration just a little bit easier.

[Oak Tree]

Brent,

 

The way you do it sounds pretty good. We likewise do the two ceremonies and could give someone the opportunity to cross the bridge without getting the AoL.

 

We did hold the application one time. Then you get into questions - does the boy get to have stuff signed off in his book? Or is he constantly being singled out as not yet officially being a Boy Scout? I actually had a boy in tears over having this distinction made, and I decided that sticking to the letter of the law wasn't worth it to do this again in the future.

 

As for the 'trustworthy' part, I'm going to go with a Scout is kind. This gets back to our long-running discussion of whether it's better to follow the spirit of the law or the letter of the law, and I think by now I've made it clear that I'm a spirit-of-the-law kind of guy.