Asst. CM problems

[Ekmiranda]

I am the Pack Committee Chairman, my husband is the Cubmaster. His Assistant Cubmaster has misconstrued information and made announcements without our consent. Our Leader's Meeting have gone from being meetings to becoming a loud, seemingly as times, free for alls. However, we do get things done BUT it makes the meetings tense. There was a time where we (CC and CM) were dealing with a family member's death and the Assistant Cubmaster stepped in and ran things for which we are unendlingly reminded. He also cannot take criticism well and finds ways to "prove" his point - not yelling but in a loud voice. During the last den meeting (our dens all meet on the same day/same place), the Assistant Cubmaster announced that we would be using "new" Pinewood Derby scoring system that had not yet been finalized. The Cubmaster nor any of the leaders approached him that night because we did not think it professional nor the proper place to do so. During subsequent Leader's Meeting, although none of the leaders really wanted to go with that system, I as CC said we would so that we would not appear to be "flying by the seat of our pants" (the Assistant Cubmaster's words). When we asked him why he made the announcement, he stuck to his guns stating that all the rules were finalized and it was a go, however, when all the leaders who were present were polled, none of them thought the rules were finalized. Yet he continued to say that they were..... All the above is echoed to varying degrees by the Den Leaders.

 

Sorry for the long story. As CC, I feel that 1. I cannot "fire" him; 2. I need to institute meeting rules, a modified version of Robert's Rules of Order; 3. Speak with the Assistant Cubmaster and lay our cards out on the table and tell him he needs to tone himself down; 4. tell him no announcements may be made without the explicit consent of CC and/or CM.

 

With these 'safety stops' in place I feel that he can be reigned in and continue to be a contributing member of the Pack. My husband, the CM, just wants his out of the Pack.

 

All opinions and comments are greatly welcomed. Thank you

[Gold Winger]

Why can't you fire him?

[Ekmiranda]

Because last time I checked Gold Winger, Cub Scouts is a volunteer organization... ?

[frank10]

As CC (along with the support of your COR and the help of your committee) it is your responsibility to assemble a workable leadership team. If you take a hard look and determine that the unit would be better off with out this person you can remove him.

That said, if the parents in the pack feel differently you may be in for a wild ride.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Ekmiranda, it's noble of you to try to rein things in and set boundaries, eh? You've got some decent ideas there to try.

 

I'm never fond of situations where a unit leader and assistant unit leaders don't get along and share a common vision, eh? If the CM says he can't work with a guy, it's a bit like the CEO saying he can't work with a subordinate. The subordinate gets removed, eh? Or, if the chairman of the board doesn't support the CEO, expect to be lookin' for a new CEO/CM.

 

Cub packs generally stand or fall on da mutual goodwill of the key parent participants. If one guy is disrupting that, it's just poison to a pack, because those key participants will simply avoid his behavior by not showin' up and participating.

 

So go ahead and try if yeh feel like it, but be prepared for the leopard to keep his spots. Aggressive types often are good at Roberts Rules, and can use 'em aggressively against others unless you're a really strong and savvy chair who's ready for the confrontation. Yeh gotta be prepared for him doin' the announcement thing anyways, no matter what you tell him; and you have to be ready to override him in public.

 

In short, be ready for your effort to fail. Have a Plan B.

 

And if yeh pull the ACM aside to speak with him in private about his behavior, it should be you and the COR (or UC or another trusted committee member), not you and your husband. Yeh know that, right ?.

 

These are the one areas where havin' a strong COR/CO relationship make a world of difference. A good COR can have a firm, private conversation about expectations or can remove a leader if necessary without makin' it into a public scene of parents tryin' to vote other parents off the island.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gold Winger]

"Because last time I checked Gold Winger, Cub Scouts is a volunteer organization... ?"

 

So? That doesn't mean that you have to take all comers or that volunteers cannot be fired. As wingnut said, it is your job to assemble a good leadership team.

[insanescouter]

In most packs the Committee makes the decision to ask someone to leave, but as I recall BSA says only the charter organization can officially remove someone from a unit. In practice most units I know of, if there are serious problems, the committee will do it, as the charter org, sadly, is only in name. However I want to state this strongly - this is not something to do lightly - there can be long term side effects.

 

Maybe the best thing you can do is talk to your District Executive and your Unit Commissioner - they can advice you the best way to handle to the situation.

 

Anyway just my wacky 2 cents...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

Helping leaders one resource at a time....

[Pack212Scouter]

I'm sorry to hear abou your difficulties. As has been stated here, as CC, you are within your rights to have a meeting with him and discuss the problems. You can also remove him from the ACM position. I believe only the COR can remove him from the pack.

 

This situation sounds serious and as painful as it is to deal with, you can almost guarantee that it will get worse (with negative impact on the Pack) if it continues. I would suggest starting with a meeting that includes CC, CM, COR, and see if your BSA district representative is available. While this situation may be new for you and even your COR, your DR has probably dealt with it before.

[ScoutNut]

In the mean time, you might also consider recruiting another Committee Member - a Secretary. Sending out a recap of what was talked about, and agreed to, at each Pack Leaders meeting would head off a lot of the ACM's he said/she said on what was finalized and what was not.

 

Also, if the ACM steps up and makes an announcement that is incorrect or untrue, why in heavens name let it stand?! It is not professional to allow the Pack to be bullied and lied to either. Interrupt and correct his statement. Let the Pack families know that they will be receiving further, up to date, information in the near future. Then send out an email or snail mail with the correct info to all families ASAP.

[Eagledad]

HI All

 

>>I would suggest starting with a meeting that includes CC, CM, COR, and see if your BSA district representative is available.

[scoutldr]

I agree with Barry...technically, the ACMs and DLs do not attend Pack committee meetings...because they are not members of the Committee. The CM attends as their representative, but technically he is not on the committee, either. The CM and CC both report to the COR, equally. At least that's the way it was last time I was trained. In my way of thinking the CM is analogous to the SPL and the DLs are the patrol leaders. Program should be planned by that group and presented to the committee for approval. Then the committee goes to work to finance it, recruit new members, monitor and process advancements, etc. That could be part of the problem...too many people at the Committee meetings mucking up the works.

 

The other thing you might want to consider is the husband/wife CM/CC team thing.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[ScoutNut]

"technically, the ACMs and DLs do not attend Pack committee meetings...because they are not members of the Committee. The CM attends as their representative, but technically he is not on the committee, either. The CM and CC both report to the COR, equally. At least that's the way it was last time I was trained. In my way of thinking the CM is analogous to the SPL and the DLs are the patrol leaders. Program should be planned by that group and presented to the committee for approval. Then the committee goes to work to finance it, recruit new members, monitor and process advancements, etc. That could be part of the problem...too many people at the Committee meetings mucking up the works."

 

OK - First off we should get some things straight. Are you EKMiranda, CM, or are you EKMiranda's wife, CC? And, according to the other posts, the CM (EKMiranda?) loved the ACM, who HE picked!

 

Next - It does not matter if, as a Scouter, you are technically a member of the Committee or not. It is, according to BSA, the "Cub Scout Leaders Book", and numerous other BSA sources, the monthly PACK LEADERS MEETING, where Pack decisions are made by ALL of the Pack's leaders.

 

A Cub Scout Pack is NOT a Boy Scout Troop, and should NOT be run as if it were!

 

EKMiranda (or whoever) - This is not YOUR Pack!! (Although this is an ongoing problem with husband/wife, CM/CC, pairs) you consistantly refer to it as YOURS) This Pack BELONGS to your Charter Org (weather they acknowledge this or not) Get over yourself and learn to work with other people!

 

 

 

[Pack212Scouter]

"technically, the ACMs and DLs do not attend Pack committee meetings...because they are not members of the Committee. The CM attends as their representative, but technically he is not on the committee, either. The CM and CC both report to the COR, equally."

 

I'm sure there are many ways that it is done (probably most incorrectly LOL) but according to the BSA organizational charts, the CM reports to the Pack Committee, who reports to the COR. Also, there is nothing against a CM, ACM, or even DL being on the Pack Committee. Their position is not on the committee structure, but they can certainly wear a committee hat.

 

I also have to pipe in on the husband/wife CM/CC team thing. Alot of packs seem to do this..and it's commendable for a family to be so involved. It is not usually the best idea. One of the unlisted roles of the CC is to provide a check & ballance for the CM. And vice versa. Part of the CC's job is to work with/coordinate with the CM in the running of the Pack. It is also to take over the running of the Pack if the CM is unable to serve. Both roles can be difficult for a husband/wife team.(This message has been edited by Pack212Scouter)

[evmori]

You can fire a volunteer! Get your CO involved & get their backing then call your council office & have him removed from your charter. You don't have to put up with his antics.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Ekmiranda]

technically, the ACMs and DLs do not attend Pack committee meetings...because they are not members of the Committee. The CM attends as their representative, but technically he is not on the committee, either. The CM and CC both report to the COR, equally. At least that's the way it was last time I was trained. In my way of thinking the CM is analogous to the SPL and the DLs are the patrol leaders. Program should be planned by that group and presented to the committee for approval. Then the committee goes to work to finance it, recruit new members, monitor and process advancements, etc. That could be part of the problem...too many people at the Committee meetings mucking up the works."

They are committee/ leader meetings not just committee meetings please re read the original post

 

EKMiranda (or whoever) - This is not YOUR Pack!! (Although this is an ongoing problem with husband/wife, CM/CC, pairs) you consistently refer to it as YOURS) This Pack BELONGS to your Charter Org (weather they acknowledge this or not) Get over yourself and learn to work with other people!

 

First off my wife used the account to post the question (Big deal Try to think out of the box broaden your mind) If you have looked at past posts you would have been able to figure that out. Secondly the H/W team has worked for the past 4-5 years thirdly peoples personalities dont always show their true colors right away yes me as the CM did choose him and did recommend him. But as the old saying goes you cant judge a book by its cover.

And P.S. I know the Pack is not mine I know who owns it. After honing it and becoming so close to the boys and the leaders you at times come to think of it as yours. If more people or should I say leaders had the passion my wife and I for this pack there might be less problem with packs

And as for the dealing with people I do on a daily basis and also in Cubs and Scouts so before you make statements that you know nothing about you might want to hold your tongue. Every situation is different as are peoples personalities. I know this is your opinion and everyone has a right to it but as we tell our 12 year old son if you have nothing nice or constructive to say it is best to not say anything at all.