is there an ideal pack size

[JeffD]

discussions coming up lately about growing the pack have made us wonder is there an ideal pack size - or can a pack be too big?

 

our pack pulls in scouts from 2 or 3 public schools and is about 70 scouts.

 

thanks in advance

jeff

 

[scoutmomma]

The pack my son came from is about that size as well, also pulling from 3 schools. The question that comes to my mind is how many dens do you have, and how big are the dens? Our local pack has, I believe, 6 or 7 dens.

[Oak Tree]

Can a pack get too big? Yes.

 

But how big is too big will vary with the pack. When a pack gets too big, you end up with a variety of symptoms. It's hard to keep everything organized. Pack meetings need to be well-scripted or they turn into chaos. You can't give boys as much individual recognition in front of the pack. It can be hard to find campgrounds. It can be hard to store all the equipment. The meeting room itself might be a limitation. It's hard to be heard over a large group so you always need a loudspeaker. etc, etc.

 

Once a pack gets too big, things will start to fray a bit around the edges. People will get dissatisfied, and the pack will shrink to a size that people are happier with.

 

There are several other factors at work, too. Some people will just like smaller packs. It can have much more of a family feel. But a large well-organized pack can have other advantages.

 

The biggest packs around here are around 120 boys (3 dens of 8 in each grade). That's bigger than I'd like, but they're obviously doing something right.

[ScoutNut]

As has been said, the "ideal" size will vary for every Pack. A lot depends on size of meeting areas available and number of volunteers.

 

Our Pack averages between 35-45. That seems to be a good size for us. We meet in the school of our CO Catholic church. We have the use of the school/parish hall and the multi-purpose "Scout Room". Many other school and parish groups also use the same facilities. If we grew to multiple dens at each level we would start to have problems with where/when they could meet. Many would be forced to meet in their homes, where space might not really be available.

[John-in-KC]

I really like the idea of 1 Pack per elementary school, not 1 pack from 3 schools.

 

Why?

 

Room to grow for 3 units, not one.

 

Think this for a moment:

Tiger Den of 8-10.

Wolf Den of 8-10

Bear Den of 8-10

Web 1 Den of 8-10.

Web 2 Den of 8-10.

 

You're at 40-50 boys before even saying hello. If you, like many Packs, send Web 2s to Boy Scouts at B/G, you have about two months before Day Camp and the first recruitment opportunity for a new Tiger Den.

 

If you have 2 tiger and wolf dens, but attrit to 1 bear, 1 web 1 and 1 web 2 den, then you have 56-70 boys around.

 

Just some numerical thought.

[rjscout]

I have been wondering the same thing. We have a pack of 48 based out of one elementary school (PTO is charter). I am a new ACM, but will be the CM next year. I have been thinking about ideas for recruiting. We have had a couple of good years of recruiting (the pack was MUCH smaller two years ago). The leadership seems enthused, which is good. Just hoping to keep the growth going, yet manageable.

 

[John-in-KC]

rjscout,

 

Some things you can do...

 

Track down some older Boy Scouts who came up from this Pack. Ask them for some reachback to play games with the young ones during a recruiting event.

 

Consider having some old PW derby cars, and setting up your track for a PW race evening. Let the kids get enthusiastic about it!

 

Talk to your own Cubs about a day where they ALL ATTEND SCHOOL IN UNIFORM... maybe do the morning flag raising as a Pack.

 

Visit with the 1st-4th grade teachers. See what they are saying about Cubs. It's also a sanity check that the Cubs are "following Akela" (the teacher).

 

Foil Dinner Evening, if you can do it without bashing the budget, is a good way to get yummy smells and activities around potential Cubs!

 

Good hunting

[mtm25653]

My boys came up in a pack that averaged 60-70 (high of ~90 over 7 years) that served 3 schools. Our side of our rural county is experiencing a lot of growth, with the population set to double in the next few years. 2 years ago we started a new pack, taking a Web II and a Bear den from the old pack into the new. Both packs recruited at 2 of the schools, the old pack at the other school right by their location. Recruitment first year added a Tiger and Wolf den, and 2 Web Is (boy scout ASM took them under his wing as a separate den.) Second year, another den moved over (all lived 20+ minutes closer to our location) and have 2 Tiger dens, for a total of about 55 boys. Old pack had some leader challenges last year and are down to about 25 boys - combined we are still bigger than the old pack, and we both have some room to grow. We are already nearing capacity at our charter church (old pack was very crowded at its church at 70 boys). I anticipate that within a few years we will split our pack again, so there is one pack per school (our 2 Tiger dens are already split by school.)

 

Our biggest 2 challenges are coordinating recruitment events when there are 2 packs pulling from the same school and (longer term) finding space for a pack that's bigger than about 60 boys. So for us, I think ideal would be 50-60 in each pack, one den of each level with maybe one or two levels with 2 dens.

[Pack212Scouter]

Oak Tree summarized it up very well. Our pack runs about 150 boys. 19-20 dens It has advantages and disadvantages, but it works well for us. I'll just make a quick summary list for you. These are but a few off the top of my head.

 

Advantages

- A much larger fundraising pool for equipment purchases, etc.

- The pride of walking into a district or council event and being unmistakably there (I know, pride is a sin...but I'll admit it's still fun).

- The ability to help out smaller Packs, District and Council with things such as PWD, etc. (We are donating our old PWD track & equipment to coucil for use by smaller packs)

- A large talent pool to pull leaders, especially committee leaders from.

- The ability to move boys around as dens, leaders, etc might fail.

- The ability & capability to carry on with or without support from the COR as changes on that side occur.

 

Disadvantages

- Need for significant facilities for meetings/storage(we are based at a Megachurch and have ample facilities).

- The need for equipment (sound/video system for Pack meetings and events PWD equipment to handle this many in the time alloted).

- Time commitment required for top leadership (it's like running a non-profit corp)

- Increased chance of leader/scout problems to deal with.

- Expectations by everyone of a quality program.

- Event planning for pack size needed (B&G, pack meeting, PWD, etc)

- Excellent communications ladder needed with leaders and Cubs.

- The need for dedicated Events Chair and more than one ACM depending on pack size(We have four, one for each rank)

 

Some people love large packs (I do) and some prefer smaller ones.

[Scouting Mom]

"I really like the idea of 1 Pack per elementary school, not 1 pack from 3 schools."

 

Believe it or not, that is the encouragement of our school superintendent, not so much from the BSA end.

 

We draw from 2 schools.

 

Of the two schools, the one where we meet has half the number of children enrolled as the other school we draw from. We have about the same number of boys from each of the two schools. So it could be argued that if we had two packs, we'd be able to draw more from the bigger school. The idea of attending a meeting at your "home" school, rather than one down the street DOES have some appeal for people.

 

Unfortunately, the larger school doesn't have as much meeting space as the smaller school. The physical space of the school is dedicated to classrooms. They have a multipurpose room that serves as gym/cafeteria/auditorium. That is the only meeting room we might be able to use, assuming there are no sports events, school programs, PTA meetings or afterschool daycare. Unfortunately, they do have all those things, plus Girl Scouts. We used to meet there but were being kicked out for other activities for about half of the time.

 

We do have the support of that school. They let us recruit anytime we ask. And we make a point to ask, so they don't forget us. They called US to do a flag ceremony at an event and even on short notice, we made it happen. We make a point of being "their" pack. The former vice-principal was one of our biggest recruiters until she was transferred. We don't get anywhere near as much support from the school where we meet.

[mtm25653]

It might not matter if a pack draws from 2 or more schools if the schools are minutes apart. In our case, from the far reaches of one school district to the far reaches of the other is more like a 50 minute drive - having a pack 10-15 minutes away, instead of one 30+ minutes away makes school night meetings feasible.

[JeffD]

yeah - our 3 schools are within a 5 mile radius - theres even another school just north if us (maybe 2 miles) that we dont pull from.

 

we currently have 1 den per rank (well webelos has their 2 dens for first and second year scouts). 2 of our dens are entirely too large IMHO (15-20 scouts). we have 2 leaders for each of those dens, but they seem to only want to have a single den and share the responsibilities. i have heard some complaints that if we broke down into multiple dens, 1 den might have 7 show up and another only have 2 show up. i disagee - but thats another thread

 

thanks for the info