Should we keep the den at 13 if no parent steps up?

[New to scouts in ID]

I would LOVE some advice. My husband is leading a wolf den (for the first time), along with an assistant leader, that has 13 scouts...our first den meeting was quite rowdy and unacceptable. Our Tiger den had just 5, and 3 of them dropped out so virtually every boy in the den is a new scout. My husband tried to split the den and ask for parent volunteers to lead the new den but no one volunteered. Should we just try to make it work with 13? Disband - though that doesn''t seem right..?? What would be needed - two assistant leaders? Unfortunately, the facility we use for meetings doesn''t allow us to split the boys into 2 groups. Sadly our experience that dem meeting has us dreading the rest of the year...Thanks in advance for all replies.

[eagle-pete]

New to scouts

 

Welcome to the forums

 

First - just an observation, not a criticism... you may want to consider registering under another user name. Assuming you continue on the forums, you won't be "New to scouts" for long.

 

Now as for your den dilemmas - BSA recommends dens with 6 to 8 Cubs. This will help greatly with your rowdy boys.

 

You will need 2 things. Parents who are willing to help and meeting places to accomodate the dens.

 

To successfully recruit parents to help with Cub Scouts requires a little more than putting out a call for volunteers. Parents need to be properly introduced in the Cub program. They need to have a light orientation and overview of Cub Scouting. You will then need to cultivate relationships with the parents. Instead of asking them to volunteer for generic, non-specific jobs, first ask for some simple help with a den meeting. They can help with the gathering activity or an opening ceremony; not take on the job of Den Leader just yet. This has 2 benefits. It allows them to become familiar with the program in a less daunting way, and it allows you to get to know the parents so you can make better choices for future Den Leaders and Assistant Den Leaders. Once parents are familiar and comfortable with the program and leaders, getting their cooperation is far easier.

 

Your meeting places for den meetings does not have to be restricted to the facility provided by your Chartered Organization. That facility should be used for the pack meetings. Den Meetings can be held in a leader's home, in a back yard, in a family room, wherever you can meet with 6 to 8 boys (following guidelines in the Guide to Safe Scouting, of course).

 

To answer your question about the requirements for leaders, the Guide to Safe Scouting states that, "One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted." Therefore, you will need a Den Leader with at least one Assistant Den Leader for anytime you meet with the boys. When an Assistant is not available ask a parent to help. This is a requirement, not a recommendation. There are no exceptions.

 

In addition to smaller dens, a well organized den meeting also goes a long way with keeping boys attentive, out of trouble, and under control. It also keeps the boys interested and makes sure they have fun, which, in my opinion, is the best part of Cub Scouting!

 

Oh, and be sure to get any new leaders you bring on to Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, and Leader Specific training as soon as possible.

 

Hope this helps.

Good Luck.

 

Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

[Pack212Scouter]

Welcome to Scouting! Your experience will soon turn into a positive one like most of ours.

 

Den size is a flexible number. The BSA recommendation of 6-8 boys is optimum and works best. Smaller groups tend to lose the group feel and put the entire program burden on the leaders. Larger Dens can be difficult to manage, as you have experienced. Our Pack only has larger dens if they are needed and with experienced leaders who have proven themselves. In addition to being an assistant Cubmaster, I lead a den of 10 Wolves. My den is pretty well behaved, but they like, listen and respect me. I can see 13 at this level being a handfull for me too though. It is essential that you get their parent in the meeting to help if you have any problems. Even though it is only a BSA requirement for Tigers, parents should still be doing alot of in meeting help with their son at this age. We had most of a Tiger den drop out after last year because of unruly meetings, so it is important to get a handle on this. Unfortunatly none of the parents told us until the year was over and their decisions made. We now keep a closer eye on things.

 

You will find that with parents new to Scouting, most are just reluctant to volunteer because they have no idea what they are getting into. There are several methods that work with varying degrees depending on personalities.

 

1) State that the Dens need to be split because of size, and if noone steps up, there won''t be a den. Sometimes this works, but it also backs you into a corner.

 

2) Ask over and over. Sometimes this will convince someone on the edge, but parents will also eventually tune you out.

 

3) Determine which parents are natural leaders with the kids. You can tell by how they interact with theirs and others. Get them aside before or after the meeting (better yet, have a kid free lunch or coffee with them, one on one works better). Explaine to them that for the best experience, the boys really need to be in two dens. Discuss how the program works and what helps there are. Also make sure they understand that they have support from the more experienced. If you feel you need help explaining, get your Cubmaster or Committee Chair involved in this discussion. This method almost always generates the leaders.

 

Of course there are others, but these are what come to mind.

[scoutldr]

It''s a well known fact that if you ask a group for volunteers, most will sit on their hands and remain silent. You need to decide what''s an acceptable number for YOU to be comfortable. Then notify the Cubmaster what your limit is. It''s his/her job to then organize (or re-organize) the dens and find new leaders. I agree, 13 is unreasonable, and for the life of me, I don''t understand this new trend toward "mega-dens". Yes, you need more parent volunteers, but that''s the way the program is designed.

[scottteng]

I would try to find one or more den chiefs ASAP. Den chiefs are boy scouts that volunteer to come work with cub scout dens. You can split the den in this way have half doing physical activity (game, PT, etc} outside with the boy scout and the other half doing an inside activity with the Asst den leader. Halfway thru allotted time they swap. The entire den will be together for opening and closing only. This leaves the den leader gently supervising both groups and available to talk to adults and cubs as needed. Resource surveys are also helpful as you can draft parents in to teach an activity related to an interest area of theirs.

[Eagledad]

HI All

 

Been there and done that. When push finally came to shove and no one else was going to lead, then I explained to all the parents that would be my asstance. First I asked for two dedicated assistance so that if one of us got sick, there were two still there. I didnt do it for Safe Scouting reasons, I did it to maintain adult sanity. Then, the rest of the parents had to take on a month of planning. I planned all the meeting except the theme activities part. The parent of the month led that part. My part was basically flag ceremony, games, and closing. I had my assistance keep up with the advancement paperwork because that can be a lot for 13 boys (17 in my case).

 

Have your meeting and give the parents a basic agenda for the year with themes for each month. Then ask a parent to volunteer for a month.

 

Another way I keep better control and the boys busy is I generally had two activities going on at the same time. I divided the den in half and each half would go to one activity for 20 minutes, then the switch. That does require two parents planning for the same meetings, but I found they like that anyway.

 

The advantage to this is you wont be over worked, your parents will become close to the boys and the den because they are part of the activities and you will have a close group of families.

 

As for wild meetings, there are a lot of ideas here to help that. But the main thing to understand is these are boys and boys like fun, mystery and to be moving all the time. Action and activities. Action and activities. Do as much outdoors as possible.

 

One other thing that helped me a lot with that many boys. I went from three 1 hour Den meetings a month to two 1.5 hour meetings a month. That extra half hour gave me the time for two activities and one week off for a breather and planning.

 

You have come to the right place because there a ton of good ideas here to choose from. Your active parents will come out as they get comfortable.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[mtm25653]

Do you have any parents with scouting experiences (particularly Eagle scouts) or any parents with older boys in the pack? I look to those 2 groups first to find leaders (if no one volunteers) - both groups know more about scouting than new parents. I have never had an Eagle scout turn me down when I ask for help, and rarely has a former boy scout. Scout parents will usually also see that it''s "their turn" to help, unless they have much younger siblings that require care.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Lots of good advice here.

 

While it won''t solve the Guide to Safe Scouting challenges which demand two adults at a Den meeting, there is a program person who can be a huge aid:

 

A DEN CHIEF

 

Den Chiefs are Boy Scouts, hopefully a bit seasoned, who volunteer to reach back and serve Cub Scouting. They work with 1 Den. Working together with the Den Leader, they divide the labor of a Cub den meeting and take on specific tasks. They support the overall meeting plan.

 

How do you get a Den Chief? You have your Cubmaster ask for one from area Troops.

 

Is there a cost? Yes, you should expect to attend Den Chief Training with your Den Chief, so both of you are on the same sheet of music. When the time comes, you should expect to go to his Court of Honor and help award him his Den Chiefs Cord (it is a doo-dad which goes on his uniform, and if he serves a certain period of time, is a permanent part of his youth uniform).

 

There is a cost in time, the DL and the Den Chief need to put their heads together and plan. The Den Chief needs to have a certain degree of accountability, but this is handled much closer to a near-peer relationship than it is a boss-subordinate relationship.

 

Going back to the original issue, 13 splits into an almost full den of 7 and a goodly sized den of 6. One option one DL friend of mine did, years ago, is he split his den into 2, and did 2 meetings... a Monday den and a Tuesday den. Yes, he had to give more time, but he had more parental support (some were available on days others weren''t, and vice versa) and more opportunity for close attention to the youth.

 

Have fun with these Cubs.

[Eagledad]

>>While it won''''t solve the Guide to Safe Scouting challenges which demand two adults at a Den meeting, there is a program person who can be a huge aid:

[ScoutNut]

You need at the LEAST 1 more leader. Two would be better because that way the den can be split easier at some point.

 

How about the other Tiger family that stayed on? Those parents have a handle on the Pack''s program by now, and, if you used Shared Leadership, have experience in leading the den. Pull one or both of the parents aside at the next den meeting and ask them to help.

 

While most of these families they might be new to your Pack, they are probably families from your son''s grade in school. Do you know any of the other parents? Do any of them interact well with the kids? The suggestion to find a parent who is a former Scout is a good one. Also, families with a daughter in Girl Scouts are more likely to volunteer for their sons too.

 

All requests to help should be done on a face-to-face basis with the parent of your choosing. Mass broadcasted requests seldom work, and if they do, you might end up with a volunteer you can not work with.

 

At the next den meeting, with the help of the boys, put together a short list of den rules/consequences that utilize the Promise and Law. They should be learning these for their Bobcat and this will help reinforce what they are and what they mean. Put them on a big piece of poster board so the boys can see them every meeting.

 

Add to that positive reinforcement. Have each boy make a coup stick of some sort (check out the How To Book). For every good thing they do (bring book, wear uniform, help fellow Scout, be polite, etc) they get a bead for their coup stick. They can collect beads or trade every 10 beads for 1 fancy bead and possibly a $1 store trinket from a box. Or, you could have a large bead jar with a line every few inches or so. If a boy does a good thing he gets a bead to put in the jar. If he does a bad thing he takes a bead out of the jar. Every time the beads reach one of the lines on the jar the den gets a special treat (Popsicles, pizza party, pick a trinket, special outing, etc).

 

Asking each family to help out for a set number of meetings is a good idea too. It will help them to get to know the program, you, and the boys in the den. It will also give you a chance to scope them out and find potential leaders.

 

Make sure YOU and all other den leaders take all of the training. Training will help give you ideas on how to handle your den.

 

BTW - For clarification purposes, the following is not exactly correct -

 

"the Guide to Safe Scouting states that, "One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted." Therefore, you will need a Den Leader with at least one Assistant Den Leader for anytime you meet with the boys. When an Assistant is not available ask a parent to help. This is a requirement, not a recommendation. There are no exceptions."

 

This poster is confusing the BSA rule of 2-deep leadership and no 1 on 1 contact.

 

From the Guide to Safe Scouting -

 

"Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings."

 

While 2-deep is a good rule to follow at all times, it is only mandated for trips and outings, not for den meetings. Of course with 13 Scouts you would have to be nuts to meet with any less than 2 adults.

 

No 1-on-1 contact means that no adult can be alone with any youth that is not their child. One leader in a room with 2 youth is fine. One adult taking a single child out in the hall, out of view of anyone else, for a discussion is not.

 

[eagle-pete]

ScoutNut

 

Once again, I stand corrected. However, I tend to err on the side of caution.

 

So, let me re-phrase... Although 2 deep leadership is not always a requirement for every situation, it is, nevertheless, good practice to maintain 2 deep leadership wherever possible. The fact is, the rare exeptions to 2 deep leadership just do not occur enough for me to merit their recommendation. Yes, you can always find exceptions to any rule, however, as an experienced Scouter, I tend to steer new leaders away from the exceptions.

 

Eagle Pete

[New to scouts in ID]

Thank you so much for your replies and advice! I think I can see how to move forward.

 

Our Pack is newly reforming after a very active/large group graducated to boy scouts last Spring. I haven''t seen den chiefs or eagle scouts helping out in our Pack yet but will find out.

 

I really understand why no volutneers now - none of the parents I''ve talked to have had scouting experience (outside the leader/assistant). And to be honest, it''s daunting for us newby leaders with some scouting experience (there''s a lot to scouting). We had 1 parent volunteer to help out (not lead) and I''ll keep checking w/ other parents face to face.

 

Because the boys are mainly from the same school (two 2nd grade classes), splitting into two dens would be painful - who goes where (you can just imagine the outcome)? But getting another assistant and splitting them up while doing activiies makes great sense. We''ll figure out another facility to accomodate this.

 

I can see too how to involve other parents by getting organized for the entire year up front. I like that alot - that will reduce stress for all, parents will know how to contribute, and we can focus on having fun.

 

Yes, the leader and assistant are trained. Just need to get another assistant and parent volunteers trained.

 

Thanks for the clarification on rules for no 1:1 meetings/contact.

 

Note - the boys are really awesome - fun, smart and energetic. We just need to direct the energy! They also love scouts!

 

Many thanks again for all your help!

 

Suzanne

 

Ps. I will have to get another username soon!

[Pack212Scouter]

Let us know how things work out...and your new name! It's leaders like you that mke the Scout program quality. Don't be scared, but I can see you stepping up to more leadership positions in the future

[John-in-KC]

Important to understand in Cubbing is a 6 letter acronym:

 

Keep

It

Simple

Make

It

Fun

 

KISMIF

 

Lots of success available to parents as well as the kids... but KISMIF has to be there!! These kids will get as much a charge going to the fire station as an 18 year old will going to a new car dealership!

[Wyndfall]

Been there, done that, have had a den that until I bridged my Webelos IIs last year averaged 14 scouts. Having older teenaged Den Chiefs was a huge help. Most parents always stayed for the meetings, and if there was a really rowdy evening, the parents read the boys the riot act at home and they were lambs for the rest of the year. To get parents to actually help, I would announce in advance what Achievement was coming up and mention that, for example, I stink at Birdhouse 101, and would have parents step up to help with each achievement. I think that worked because instead of asking for overall help, I narrowed my requests to areas that were within an individual parent's area of expertise. From then on, non-scout experienced parents were more likely to help.