how much should we know about our parents?

[JeffD]

subtitled - scouts and felons and probation officers - oh my!!

 

so we just had a request from a parent to write a letter for his probation officer so that he can attend a pack camping trip this weekend. though my gut feeling is an immediate NO - i figured i would take the info to our DE to find out how this has been handled in the past.

 

the father volunteered some information about this arrest. that it was a non-violent robbery and he had served his state prison time. armed with a name and DOB, i was able to look at the local sheriff''s office arrest history. the most recent arrest, which led to his state prison time, seemed to tell another story.

 

here are the charges for which he served the most recent stint in jail - BURGLARY OF DWELLING WITH ASSAULT OR BATTERY (FP), ROBBERY (F2), POSSESSION OF DRUG WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION (M2). (items in parenthesis represent a Felony or Misdemeanor).

 

since 2003, he has been arrested in our county 3 times per year for things ranging from drug possession, domestic violence, strong arm robbery as well as a couple other items, multiple times. he has now been out of prison for 4 months.

 

though the kid could clearly benefit from POSITIVE male role models, i wonder if he should even be allowed to participate. recent changes to the Jessica Lundsford act (i dont now if this is a Florida thing or National) prohibit those convicted of crimed of "moral turpitude" from being on public school grounds: which is where our den/pack meetings are held.

 

interested in your thoughts on the subject

[GernBlansten]

Interesting. You found out about his background because he wanted a letter to his parole officer. Had he submitted an adult application before? If so, are they even checking?

 

My opinion is I would have no problem writing a letter to the probation officer (even offering a glowing review if supported), but I wouldn''t allow him to become a leader nor would I allow him to attend meetings or outtings. Sometimes, choices you make early in life haunt you. A felony conviction should disqualify you from an active role in a youth organization.

[John-in-KC]

I forget if you are Committee Chair or Cubmaster???

 

If you are either of those persons, the next TWO people to take this issue to are:

 

- Your Chartered Organization Representative.

- Your District Executive.

 

Both will be able to give you guidance on this. They are two of the people who matter in this, as they represent both sides of the Scouting contract. The COR will make a decision about if your Chartered Partner is OK/not OK with this person attending meetings or being at an outing. (He may well have to go to an attorney member or rerpesenting the Chartered Partner). The DE can tell you whether or not this person should be disqualified from any BSA leadership position. THe DE has resources available, including attorneys on retainer who can provide local, competent legal advice. (The attorney Scouters here are stalwart and sterling folk, but may not be current on any specifics of the law where you live).

 

If you are any other position in the Pack, then this challenge needs to rise to your CC or CM. Keep this matter a close circle. No leader in the Pack needs an invasion of privacy lawsuit. Scouting doesn't either under its liability policy.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[DanKroh]

"I wouldn''''t allow him to become a leader nor would I allow him to attend meetings or outtings"

 

Keep in mind that this is Cub Scouts. If a parent can''t come on an outing, that generally means that the Cub doesn''t get to go.

 

I''m assuming that the boy is not a Tiger, and that the father isn''t trying to get registered as his adult partner, so he isn''t required to be at every meeting (although some packs, like ours, still encourage parents to attend meetings). I would imagine he certainly couldn''t pass muster to become registered as a leader, but as just a Cub Scout parent, I think the ground is a little grayer.

 

some other things I would need to take into consideration:

1) does the boy have another parent/guardian who can come to meetings and outings instead of the felonious father?

2) would you know anything about his record if he hadn''t volunteered the information in the first place? I think he does deserve some points for disclosure.

3) is the father the boy''s legal custodial parent? It seems quite plausible that the parents may be divorced under the circumstances, and one would hope that the mother would be in a better parenting position than the father. What is her role in this, and does she do anything to support her son''s involvement in scouting?

 

I agree that the man''s record should disqualify him from active participation in any youth group. I think the best situation would be if there was another adult who could accompany the boy to meetings and outings. If there isn''t, then I guess you have to gauge how much you don''t want the father around against the possibility of losing the boy from scouting. While I can''t see him doing too much harm at a pack meeting, for example, I think it is another thing to have him along on a campout where people may be leaving personal possessions unattended.

 

Hopefully your DE can provide you with some guidance. Otherwise, I think you need to look specifically at how his presence could impact your pack, and decide if it is too much of a risk.

 

good luck!

[JeffD]

he was never being considered as a leader. all this came up because part of his probation states he cannot be away from home after 10 PM. he wanted a letter saying that he would be at the camp out with us. since i have never seen the guy (the den leader just met him) i couldn''t even pick him out of a lineup.

 

the nice thing about our county is that you can search county arrest records with only a name as well as court dockets. so i can not only see the arresting charge - but also determine the convicted charge (if a plea deal was entered)

 

[evmori]

The short answer - Don''t let him go!

 

The long answer - Do not let him go!!

[Eamonn]

My big concern is why a letter is needed?

 

Once this persons probation is over and all the terms have been met. He as a parent will be allowed to attend Troop events.

I think I''d ask him why his probation officer feels that a letter is needed?

Maybe a call to the probation officer would be in order?

I would think if a letter is being requested by the probation officer, that this parent attending the event would not violate the conditions of his probation.

I also think this has more to do with the CO than the DE?

A word in the ear of the COR is not a bad idea?

In fact I''d be a lot happier if the letter to the PO were to come from the CO.

I''d be very careful about quoting acts and laws without having got the advise of people who really know what they are talking about.

Even though this guy might have a criminal record as long as your arm wrongly suggesting that he is guilty of child sex abuse might be grounds for an law suit against you, the CO and maybe the BSA.

I don''t know what position you hold in the pack?

I do feel that this is something that I''d be happy to pass on up, with the final word coming from the CO.

I''d also want to do everything possible to protect the child. If need be from his parent? But also from any finger pointing or wagging tongues.

Even at home you need to be careful about talking to others about this in earshot of other Cub Scouts (Your Son?). The kid has done nothing wrong!! He didn''t pick his parents and he deserves the best program we can offer.

As for how much we should know about the Scouts we serve?

Having knowledge about the Scouts we serve and their family backgrounds can help us provide a better program and serve the Scout better.

I''m sure having his Dad be in jail has caused a lot of turmoil and hardship for the family, it can''t have been easy for this Lad.

He needs to know that the Pack is a place where he can feel safe and cared for. Maybe more so than the other Scouts who come from good (whatever that means?) families.

You and the other adults in the Pack have a golden opportunity to really make a difference in the life of this kid.

Go for it!!

Eamonn.

[JeffD]

wow - a lot of entries since i posted last..

 

John-in-KC I forget if you are Committee Chair or Cubmaster??? CM

If you are either of those persons, the next TWO people to take this issue to are: - Your Chartered Organization Representative. - Your District Executive.

Already made calls to the DE this morning and we have spoken on the matter. He has said the person is DQd from being a leader and is not allowed to attend anything but den/pack meetings and district events.

If you are any other position in the Pack, then this challenge needs to rise to your CC or CM. Keep this matter a close circle. No leader in the Pack needs an invasion of privacy lawsuit. Scouting doesn''t either under its liability policy.

Agreed which is why any information discussed was obtained from public information sources.

some other things I would need to take into consideration: 1) does the boy have another parent/guardian who can come to meetings and outings instead of the felonious father?

The boy in question is a tiger cub. There are a couple other boys that I know are related, but do not know if they are brothers or cousins.

2) would you know anything about his record if he hadn''''t volunteered the information in the first place? I think he does deserve some points for disclosure.

If the question is have I performed background checks on all parents? The answer is no. he called to disclose the information at which time I looked through public records for, as Paul Harvey says, the rest of the story.

3) is the father the boy''''s legal custodial parent?

I dont know for sure  he says he is the step-father and told me that he has been around the kid since he was 1 . i dont know of any legal relations

It seems quite plausible that the parents may be divorced under the circumstances, and one would hope that the mother would be in a better parenting position than the father. What is her role in this, and does she do anything to support her son''''s involvement in scouting?

Considering the previous charges and convictions of domestic violence, I would question her judgment when it comes to the well being of herself and the child.

we even had a den leader wonder ifwe should be worried when we bring in popcorn money.

[JeffD]

Even though this guy might have a criminal record as long as your arm wrongly suggesting that he is guilty of child sex abuse might be grounds for an law suit against you, the CO and maybe the BSA.

 

there was NEVER the suggestion that the person was involved in child sex abuse... i have no idea where you got that information from.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, OK...

 

Close as I can tell this gent is neither a parent nor a custodian/guardian for this kid. So this is for all intents and purposes an outside adult with a criminal record and confined probation asking to come on a cub scout outing (which would incidentally violate his parole).

 

Uh... no.

 

Who is the custodial parent and what do they have to say?

 

Beyond that, in cubbing it''s OK for another adult to be designated as "parent" for the outing, as long as the ratio is no greater than 2 boys per adult. So any other parent in the pack can double-up with this boy if the boy is known to them. In short, make it work for the lad, but as your DE said, this is a non-starter for the adult.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

From JeffD''s post, this man is not a Pack Leader and is not applying to be a Pack Leader.

 

This man simply wants to take his son on a Pack Family Camping trip.

 

According to BSA, Scouting is not a closed organization. Parents are allowed to attend Scout events with their children. If you do not let this man attend your Pack camping trip, will his son still be able to attend? Will the boys family allow him to go with a different family? Are there sufficient tents to accomadate this?

 

Talk to your CO about this, especially in regard to any FL specific laws.

 

If you all see your way clear to allowing this dad to accompany his son on the camping trip, it might help both dad & son. However, I would have a little heart to heart talk to him before the trip on expected behavior and BSA policies.

[scottteng]

"Already made calls to the DE this morning and we have spoken on the matter. He has said the person is DQd from being a leader and is not allowed to attend anything but den/pack meetings and district events."

Translation the DE knows that he cannot prevent a "parent" step or otherwise from attending the regular meetings or from registering and attending a district event but says you are free to ban him from your campout because it will be you on the lawsuit not him. That is why council run family camps are so popular because no one has to make any troublesome decisions. What if the guy was no longer on parole and no longer needed permission to be away from home overnight? What if the guy had been is trouble years ago but had turned over a new leaf? Maybe some investigation into the life expectancy of a child molester put into population at any prison would be helpful. Felons dislike them every bit as much as other citizens.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Wow, I guess I should reload the original post before sending!

 

The boy is a Tiger. Tigers MUST have an adult Partner with them at all times. If your Tiger Den Leader just met him, he must not be the boys Tiger Partner. Unless this man is his legal guardian he can NOT sleep in the same tent as the boy. You would also need written permission from the boy''s parent/guardian in order for this man to be allowed to attend.

 

If this man is the boy''s legal guardian, your DE can prevent him from becoming a BSA leader, but that is about all. The DE has no say in weather or not he can attend den or pack meetings, or den/pack events like the camping trip.

 

Sit down with your Charter Org and discuss the situation. Then sit down with the parents and discuss the situation. The decision is up to your Charter Organization.

 

Also, please stop discussing this families problems with others in the Pack who are not directly involved. Ask the new Tiger about gossip, he has a Tiger Requirement on the subject.

[JeffD]

What if the guy was no longer on parole and no longer needed permission to be away from home overnight?

which was one reason i brought this up for discussion.  playing the ''what-if'' game only helps those who are not currently in my situation. its easy to say what you might do - but you never know when or how you could be put in this situation. i am only hoping that others can think about this without having to deal with it. 

What if the guy had been is trouble years ago but had turned over a new leaf?

he was released from state prison 4 months ago. by virtue of his repeated arrests - it can be reasonably inferred what his recitivism rate is. if history is a factor - he has gone no more than 6 months without an arrest for robbery... unless you count the time in prison. do you like those odds?

for the kids sake - i hope he has turned over a new leaf. i hope he no longer beats the crap out of his girlfriend/wife.

Maybe some investigation into the life expectancy of a child molester put into population at any prison would be helpful. Felons dislike them every bit as much as other citizens

once again - this person did NOT commit any sex crimes.

[Lisabob]

Among the several things that bother me in this situation: you''ve said that neither you nor the DL know this guy, and yet you''re being asked to write a letter vouching for him. I think this is reason enough to decline, without getting into any details about what else you know or believe to be true.