Sticky situation with uncontrolable kid

[wdwnut]

Hi everyone. I hope you can give some advice on how to handle a situation that has come up in our pack. This is going to be long so bear with me please.

 

My husband is CM and I''m on the committee for our pack and I''m also treasurer. We have a Web I son and have been heavily involved in the pack for the past two years.

 

There is a wolf that to say he''s out of control is an understatement. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and his mother is Den Leader. However the mom does a minimum amount of discipline with her child. He does not sit still in Pack meetings and is found on top of tables and chairs or just running around while presentations are going on. My husband and the other Den leaders have tried to get him back in his seat but it only lasts a few minutes. If he stopped everytime this kid got up our meetings would take 3 hours.

 

We had hoped that after he got expelled from our private school that the mom may take some action over the summer. That didn''t happen and now that things are starting up again his behavior seems to have gotten worse. We had a family camp out this weekend and the mom did not correct him once. All the other families are frustrated and many including myself refuse to correct this kid because it does nothing!

 

We do all our den meeting together in the gym and separate out into dens. It has worked out really well as we always have 2 (or 6!) deep leadership this way. Our first den meeting of the year was this past Monday and this child tried to climb out the window and was swinging around a piece of wood that he found somewhere. Again mom was off chatting and not paying attention leaving another leader to correct his behavior.

 

Now it''s come to my attention that other parents are seriously considering leaving scouts because of this kid. We have worked hard to build our numbers and have a successful pack with lots of parental involvement. I do not want to see our pack destroyed because of one child and his mom.

 

My husband is going to have a talk with the mom tomorrow but we aren''t sure how to tactfully explain the situation and the consequences. We don''t want to kick him out because he probably really needs Scouts but at the same time we don''t want to lose other good scouts and parents.

 

I''ve suggested that he tell her that she has to be with her child every second and not leave his side until his behavior improves.

 

Any other suggestions? Thanks!(This message has been edited by wdwnut)

[evmori]

Toss tact to the wind! Tell mom she either controls her kid or he will not be recharted! Make sure you have the backing of your CC & I''d get your UC & DE invovved.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the Forums.

 

There are resources available, but DL Mom has to accept and use them. If not, then with courtesy and tact, you may well have to tell this woman she and her son are done.

 

Ed forgot to mention, I hope: Have your CM and CC contact the Chartered Partner. Deliberately dropping a boy is rarely a good thing in the short term.

 

When the Cubmaster or Committee Chair contact the Unit Commissioner (volunteer) and/or the District Executive (Professional Staff), ask for directions to the District Special Needs resource person. If there is not one, ask for Council level assistance.

 

BTW, asking area Troops for not one but TWO Den Chiefs to cover this Den would be a good thing. One Den Chief works with the den as a whole, the other rides herd on the young man.

 

One other alternative is to ask Mom to step back to being assistant Den Leader and supervising her son, and asking someone else to step up to be the Den Leader.

[evmori]

Yeah John, I did forget! Thanks.

 

As far as Den Chiefs go, a million of ''em aren''t going to help this boy unless mom gets a handle on him 1st.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[ScoutNut]

Talking to the mother (and father) should have happened last year. It is good that your husband will finally be doing that tomorrow. He needs to ask her for any and all information they have on their son''s condition. Explain that his behaviors are becoming a threat to his safety and the safety of others. They have been dealing with this for 7 years now and should know that ADHD kids need a LOT of structure and varied activities. Let them know that the Pack can work together WITH them to help their son be successful in Scouts but the key is that they must help. Sitting back and doing nothing while their son endangers himself and others is not working. They need to come up with a more hands on approach. You might also have some info on hand to give them about any Special Needs Packs in your District.

 

Part of the problem might be the time and setup of your Pack program. If he is on meds, they are most likely out of his system by evening. Some have a tendency to create nasty mood swings when the kids are coming down off them. With so much going on around him, he might be overstimulated and physically not able to sit quietly for an extended length of time.

 

When dealing with ADHD it works best to break things up into small segments. 5 min of sitting - 5 min of up and active - 5 min of singing - etc.

 

Here is some information from BSA on dealing with ADHD Scouts -

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/pdf/ADHDTips.doc

 

[wdwnut]

Thanks for the responses. My husband has a lot of contacts and friends at council. He has mentioned this problem before to them but I think that he is MUCH nicer than I would be about it.

 

As far as meds, the mom doesn''t think he needs them. We''ve discussed it in the past and she said they tried but he just sat and cried so she never gave it to him again. We were really hoping that she got some help over the summer but I guess that was wishful thinking. The parents are divorced and the dad doesn''t want to "label" his kid so there is definately some resistance there.

 

I really think that the mom is just clueless, or in denial, or something. You would think having your first grader kicked out of school would be a wake up call but she turns it around and blames everyone else.

 

I really like the idea of her stepping down to assistant and staying with her son. We do have a lot of parents that I''m sure would pick up the slack.

 

Thanks again.

[DenZero]

Yours is a more extreme situation, but this helped for us last year. The ex-CM''s son (a Web I) was quite disruptive, my younger son (a Tiger) tends to emulate him. So what we did was swap responsibility, I worked with his boy and he worked with mine, so the "showing off bad behavior for dad" motivation was gone. Both boys were much more willing to behave once their parents weren''t involved. We had a similar situation with a Bear den leader''s son, being disruptive because it got him attention from mom.

 

[Venividi]

There are times that volunteers need to be let go. It may very well be time for this Mom to be replaced as a den leader - that is a call that will need to be made by the CM with support of CC, CO, and others. A common mistake in such situations is to do nothing. I applaud your husband for not allowing this to continue. Next step is to identify which of the other parents appears the temperment, interest, and character to make a good den leader, and start the recruiting process. You may be correct that this kid may benefit scouts, but unless he can be controlled, it is not wise to lose the many for the one (Yes, I realize that is opposite the parable of the shepherd leaving the flock to look for the lost sheep). That is where the "know your resources" comes in. If mom can be convinced to control her son as a condition to stay, or if you have access to other willing adults or a very good den chief, then you may be successful.

 

If you have a unit commissioner, engage him or her. A UC, if you have one, can helping guide through the process of removing a volunteer, as he/she should be able to be objective.

 

[insanescouter]

I am going to something a bit strange today ... The ADHD kid bouncing all over the places sounds bit like me at that age ... I have ADHD, Dylisixa, short and long term memory problems, speech problems, coordination problems and goes the list. I was in special ed most of my school years. Yet I managed to graduate HS with a 3.43 gpa and Community College 3.53 gpa deans list honor roll.

 

Now keep in mind, my mom was a active Den Leader when I was a Scout and was known for her short temper and hard rule. My dad was also often the Cubmaster or other active role. If I didn''t behave I would feel it when I got home. Later when I went to Boy Scouts my dad was still active, but mom wasn''t. There were even times my dad had to tackle me because I was acting up so badly. I can remember a few times at camp I got grounded to the seat in the truck. Later I found out the Troop had tried to kick me out a number of times and each time my dad stood up to the committee and the troop and said ok but you lose me too ... some how I made it through and even earned Eagle (still one of my proudest moments).

 

As you can see the big differences is my parents did everything but kill me or duck tape me to a tree to keep me under control.

 

Scouting was / is one of the best things that has every has happen to me,it is a big part of who I am today and who I will be tomorrow. Without Socuts I do not know where I would have ended up.

 

I am sure Scouting can help that Wolf problem of yours, however if the parents are doing nothing to try and control him. Do not sacrifice 10 families to save one. In the end we can not help them all.

 

I will also say the one thing that drives me nuts to this day... a mom comes up to me says "my son is adhd, you will need to treat him different." ... my answer.. is "no i do not, no I wont, and let me tell you my story..." ... of course this is not always true, each one has to be taken on a case by case basis, but my experience is keep them busy, keep them moving, don''t give them any dead time ... if they have time to tie there shoes you are have to much slack time ... keep it organized and moving and you will be surprised what the results can be...

 

Ok, yes I am taking 2 sides with this one ... if the parents step up and do everything possible to control the kid (I can tell you total control is impossible they will never just sit there, but control in a general since is possible) ... else suggest another unit that may be able to "better" work with him... I don''t mean pass the buck, sometimes the difference in leadership, program, location, activity, what ever can make the differences.... and if all else fails the committee not the cubmaster, not a den leader it has to be the committee chair based on committee vote that asks them to leave...

 

Ok now that I have spelled my guts.... I hope my 2 cents is of help ... feel free to pick my brain further if you want ...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

[tcherven]

This was mentioned in one of the previous posts, but needs to be brought out again.

 

Perhaps there is too much going on, and too many stimuli for this boy.

 

Maybe den meetings for him would be better if it was only his den in the room.

 

Pack meetings - that''s a tougher nut. Again, the key here would be to keep things moving, and switching the focus every few minutes.

[evmori]

This was mentioned in one of the previous posts, but needs to be brought out again.

 

Perhaps there is too much going on, and too many stimuli for this boy.

 

Maybe den meetings for him would be better if it was only his den in the room.

 

 

Yeah maybe it would be better for him. But what about the rest of the den?

 

Why must we always be forced to fit to the needs of few at the expense of the many? Now before ya''ll have a myocardial infarction, both my kids are deaf. They are both grown now but when they were growing up, we always stressed they will need to fit into society not society fitting into them. My son was in Scouts & earned his Eagle with no special accommodation''s.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[PeteM]

As far as the med''s go, try giving him Mountain Dew or STRONG coffee (with his Mom''s permission, of course). The caffeine is a stimulant that is similar to the normal ADHD medications, to see if that helps.

 

You never know, maybe, if the mom sees that it helps her son, she will take him to the doctor for some regular medication.

 

You can also use this method if, at the end of the normal day, the meds have started to wear off, to give them some caffeine, to "take the edge off". (all this with the parents permission).

 

Just something to try.

 

Pete

 

[wdwnut]

Thank you all for your opinions and insight. I talked to more moms this morning at school drop off. Everyone of them said that they don''t want the boy to leave. They just want his mom to step up to the plate. I''m going to be sure to pass that on to my husband so it gets to the mom.

 

I realize that adhd kids are different. We had one a few years ago that earned his AOL and moved on. I don''t even think the problems with this scout is the adhd. I think it''s pdd, parental discipline disorder.

 

 

[jens3sons]

WDWNUT,

 

I have a son who was just diagnosed with ADHD this summer. I thought I would try and explain what it is like to have ADHD the way my son''s therapist described it to me. It is like walking (through life) as quickly as you can, only able to see 3 feet ahead of you...oh, and you have blinders on, so you are only able to see right in front of your feet and are unable to see the "big" picture.

 

With all this in mind and some family history we have made an informed decision to put our son on natural supplements formulated for ADHD (a lot of amino acids)and my son sees a behavior therapist once a week.

 

I too, probably a lot like this mother, gave up on my son for a time, as it just seemed as nothing worked, and quite frankly I was exhausted. Conventional parenting goes right out the window when it comes to children with ADHD. I needed to be reminded that I was the one in control, and I was the one with the "power", and the everything and anything can be a privilege and can be taken away(including scouting, although I would not want that to happen, but I have to stand firm). So maybe when this mom is talked to, these little tidbits can help with the conversation.

 

As far as what might help right NOW for the den and the pack here is a little suggestion. Keep in mind that a reward system works so much better than a punishment. One thing we have done with my son to help him behave in church or in a restaurant is this. We have so many white plastic poker chips and his goal is to earn 1 red one. We figure out how long we will be at a location (an hour=12 possible earned chips), and then we figure out how many he needs to earn to get the "Red" chip (so lets say he has to earn 9 white chips the first time...as he gets better at this little "game" the next time he might have to earn 10 of them). Someone has to be sitting there making sure to watch their watch and to definitely follow through with all of it. Have a little baggie for him to put the chips in as he earns them. When he earns the red chip have a little treasure chest or some different choices for him, that he can then choose something as his reward for the good behavior, and make sure to echo the praises with him, even when handing him the white chips....Anything can work though, I forgot the chips one day, and I used nickels and a quarter out of my change in the van, as the chips and his reward was that he got to keep the change. It really will seem like you are praising a 3 year old, every time you hand him a chip, but for some quirky reason it works!

 

Let me echo one more thing...keep the meetings moving. Children with moderate-severe ADHD only have (if you are lucky) a five minute attention span. Good luck!

[Gunny2862]

As a former ADHD and ADD parent, (he''s thirteen and the DC''d last of the meds, when school started this year and is doing very well) one thing to remember is that not only the disease is in question here but also the parenting.

 

Is this an ADHD issue, or is it a parenting issue or a confluence of both?

 

My child knew perfectly well that there were things that at different stages of his growth that we would look on as symptomatology, which he should still attempt to control, and others that were just plain old ordinary bad behavior - where he would be cut no slack at all.(And the customary disclaimer - I thought the ADHD/ADD thing was a simple scapegoat for bad parenting until I had a child with it.)

 

I would probably ask, as has been recommended above, that she temporarily step down to an assistant position and deal primarily with her own child.

 

I would also ask her what the treatment resources she has been using are and how reliable is the diagnosis.

 

There are a lot of different medications and the dosage is CRITICAL also. We went through many different treatment plans before finding one that worked reliably - and even then we had to constantly monitor his weight, as he grew as little as five pounds could have a huge impact on the medications effectiveness - so much that he would occasionally ask to see the doctor because he would start to feel out of control, usually when this occurred we''d put him on the scale and see an unnoticed weight gain.

 

But if there are any Autistic characteristics they may have given an improper medication in the first place. The drugs only work on what they work on - and the child''s own brain chemistry affects the choice of medication also.

 

Good luck, I hope all involved find workable answers.