Need some clarification

[Trailblazermom]

Greetings,

Can someone tell me if I am understanding the rules regarding horesmanship activites with Cubs? Heres the situation. CM planned an outing to a persons home who has horses. The horse lady owns/ works with 4H kids and apparently the 4H kids are going to show their horses and walk the Cubs around on the horses. I have read the Guide to Safe Scouting about this and was a bit vauge until I pulled out the BSA Health and Safety Guide, which gave tons more detail but still left questions in my mind.

Is this allowed at a persons home and not at say an actually business that is insured and licensed for stuff or does that only

apply to a council event?

My red flag is up at this point because the part about using certified headgear I was told the helmets the 4H kids have will probably be to big so bring bike helmets. Is that allowable?

I just want to make sure I am interpreting these guidelines correctly. I mean its one thing to do this activity as non scouters but if its a cub activity i want to make sure its done safely.

Just as a reference the Health and Safety Guideline can be found here.

http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/safety/Health/Section1J-M.asp

let me know your thoughts

trailblazer

[frank10]

Ok, first off, my ID "Wingnut" comes from the fact that I ride a Honda Goldwing (110,000 miles on this bike so far). I know more about helmets than you would ever want to read.

 

I would require a helmet designed and certified for the sport it is to be used in.

A bike helmet is designed to protect the brain from a fall of about 4 feet. A rider's head on horse back is more like 8 feet off the ground.

Upon impact with the ground the shell of helmet is stopped while the brain inside it is still moving, the EPS (Styrofoam) liner is crushed at a rate that allows the brain to slow down.

If the bike helmet was tough enough to take the fall, I'm suer they'd have labeled it as such.

 

BTW: In my motorcycle class we were told that there are more deaths from head injuries from riding houses than riding motorcycles (Based on a per mile of riding). Don't have a source for this but it sounds likely.

 

[ScoutNut]

AS knowledgeable as these 4H kids are, thy are not professionals. Bike Helmets are just a band-aid so that folks feel like precautions are being taken, when in fact none are.

 

This is a private home, not a professional riding stable.

 

If the kids want to ride with this 4H group on their own time, OK. As a Cub Scout group, I would say watch, learn, don't get on a horse.

 

If a Scout were to get kicked, stepped on or thrown, this individual would be libel, and if it were MY child, the CM would be too.

 

BTW - Was a Tour permit filled out?

[insanescouter]

I don't care if it Scouting or a non-scouting event. Shouldn't the bottom line be what is the risk to my kid, and what can I do to reduce that risk. Notice I did not say get rid of the risk, everything we do in life has certain risks, it how we minimize them... Thus as you can guess I would say use the right helmet its not worth the risks...

 

My wacky 2 cents...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

[Jeffrey H]

"....If a Scout were to get kicked, stepped on or thrown, this individual would be libel, and if it were MY child, the CM would be too...."

 

 

Yes, that's why many of us carry some form of personal liability insurance.

 

The last part of your answer could indicate why some adults avoid Cub Leader positions. The risks of being sued by parents that have no health/medical insurance could be too great, even when they are follow guide to safe scouting.

 

We took our Cubs horse back riding at a Scout resident camp and it was a very safe environment. Each parent/leader had to accompany each Scout with their horse. It can be done and it we had a great time.

 

My two cents....

 

 

 

[Trailblazermom]

Thank you all for your replies. I know that riding a horse with a bike helmet would not be appropriate. Wheather it be Cubs or not. What I meant to say or get across was when you assume a risk outside of a group like scouts your not involving a big organization etc. Your on your own if you want to do something not smart. I hope i explained that right. This is what I was trying to convey to CM with this whole issue that you can't do said activity if you do not follow guielines set forth by BSA, and that he would be the one liable.

As for a tour permit I am going to say no it has not been done yet.

Thanks again I knew I was right in what I read the first time in the guides. I apologize if this seemed like a rather duh? issue I guess I just needed affirmation I was correct.

trailblazer

 

[Beavah]

Is this allowed at a persons home and not at say an actually business that is insured and licensed for stuff or does that only apply to a council event?

 

There's no specific prohibition on cub unit horsemanship orientation rides for units that I'm aware of (for Wolf Cubs and above - no Tigers). Da Health & Safety Guide stuff you quote is for councils running formal programs. Our council routinely issues tour permits for cub outings that include basic (walked) horsemanship introduction at a local private farm. The fact that in your case the establishment is familiar with kids through 4-H is a real bonus.

 

My red flag is up at this point because the part about using certified headgear I was told the helmets the 4H kids have will probably be to big so bring bike helmets. Is that allowable?

 

Yah, in general I'd agree with wingnut that yeh should try to use a sport-specific helmet. In this specific case I think a bike helmet is just fine. Bike helmets are designed to absorb a lot more energy than a fall from 4 feet. They're designed to absorb that fall along with a 20+ mph impact. A horse being hand-walked by an experienced 4-H youth or wrangler just ain't goin' to compare with ridin' a mountain bike into a tree.

 

I just want to make sure I am interpreting these guidelines correctly. I mean its one thing to do this activity as non scouters but if its a cub activity i want to make sure its done safely.

 

Horses are big animals and there's always some risk, eh? Falls can injure arms and necks no matter what helmet yeh wear. Same as kids climbin' trees or playin' baseball. Misbehavin' kids can get shoved or even kicked by a horse.

 

You're still probably at bigger risk drivin' to the farm then you are being walked around a paddock sittin' on a horse. File a tour permit if your council expects one, keep your kids well-behaved, and have a good time.

 

Beavah

 

P.S. As far as runnin' a private trip goes, I think if each parent is there and given a choice to let their kid participate or not, the risk is divided between the establishment and the parent for the most part. Trip organizer's just providin' the opportunity.

 

There's no need to get all afraid about personal liability from runnin' private trips. We as parents do birthday parties all the time, don't we?(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Lisabob]

Speaking as a person who used to run a horseback riding camp and (formerly) certified riding instructor...

 

Bike helmets are NOT an acceptable substitute for riding helmets. They are not made to the same specs. More over, the standard advice for the more recent bike-like riding helmets is, if you've taken a good fall with one, replace it because the foam won't cushion as well in the event of a future fall. Now, how many kids' bike helmets have been dinged up multiple times? And you want to put them on a horse with that? Nope.

 

Chances are fairly high that everything would be ok, but you can't be sure about it. So regardless of what the G2SS does/doesn't say about this, I wouldn't let my kid do it, and I wouldn't allow someone else's kid get on my horse (if I still had one) with one of those bike helmets on.

 

By the way, you want to ask about foot gear too. Many barns won't allow sneakers and will instead require a boot with some kind of heel. The reason for this is that (esp. with smaller kids) a sneakered foot can slip all the way through the stirrup and get caught if a kid should fall, resulting in being dragged. Yes, I have seen this happen, though again, it isn't common.

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Thinking a little more about this - why don't you have the 4H kids do the demo, teach some rudimentary horse care skills like how to brush a horse, how to walk it, what a horse eats and how to feed it, how to muck a stall, etc., and then schedule a riding day at a nearby public stable that has the insurance, the proper safety equipment, and the kind of bomb-proof horse that is most likely to work well for your kids?

 

It might cost more, but then you'll have fewer worries too. And your kids would still get the more personal intro to taking care of a horse that they might not get at a public stable.

 

And, if you're really thinking ahead, how about also checking with the 4H adult to see if she would be willing to register as a merit badge counselor for the Boy Scout horsemanship badge too?

[frank10]

Beavah:"They're designed to absorb that fall along with a 20+ mph impact."

 

No helmet can save you from a 20 mph impact. As I pointed out above, at impact the shell stops and the brain has 1 to 1.5 inches to slow down before it too must come to a dead stop. above a 2 meter fall this is over 300 g's. A 20 MPH stop would turn the brain to jello.

Helmet shells are designed to hold togeather with the high forward motion but the foam is designed to absorb the impact of just the fall hight.

 

Any EMT types want to chime in? Or maybe an engineer?

[Beavah]

Now, how many kids' bike helmets have been dinged up multiple times?

 

Same applies for puttin' 'em on a bike with such a helmet. Styrofoam is a one-shot protector. Once it's taken an impact, it's used up. Tiny dings from settin' it on a table, no problem. But a shot to the helmet and it's time to get a new one, no matter what kind of helmet it is. More dangerous to put 'em on a bike with such a helmet than to put 'em on a horse. More impact energy possible on bikes/roads/with cars.

 

To clarify, I agree with Lisabob that a bike helmet is not an acceptable substitute for a riding helmet for actual riding. Too easy to snag on stuff, and not designed to protect against getting kicked. But in a hand-walked paddock environment with wranglers present, those aren't really issues, eh? Leastways, they're controllable by other means. Still, it's good to demonstrate to kids proper practice, even if it ain't necessarily a safety issue in a given circumstance.

 

BTW, a quick check shows that bike helmets are actually certified to a slightly higher standard in terms of protectin' against impacts from falls and crashes. And bike helmets have legal standards requirements, while equestrian helmets have only voluntary standards, eh?

 

O'course, I still wear my faithful old cowboy hat myself.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

Cyclin' helmet is ASTM Standard F1447. Equestrian helmet is ASTM F1492. Anyone can go to a bigger library and look up da differences, eh? Cycling helmets must protect against a 2m fall onto an anvil, equestrian a 1.8m fall onto an anvil, both with a maximum allowable energy transfer (acceleration) to the skull of 300g's. As I mentioned the standard is higher for cycling helmets. The difference is in shape (snag resistance) and impact resistance against sharp (hoof-like) objects that can cause penetration rather than impact injuries.

 

I will say that a 2m fall with a 2cm stoppin' distance only gets yeh 100g's, not 300. So more like 50g's for 1.5 inches. Leastways, if I remember my high school physics. That's the "best case ideal" for a perfect helmet. A 2m fall results in an impact velocity just short of 15mph. The standard calls for the helmet not imparting more than 300g's to a the head in a 2m / 15mph impact on hard iron, so a 20mph impact with "softer" tree seems about right, eh?

 

Real-world collisions are more complicated, and cycling helmets have made great saves in 40+ mph impacts in road races. But not straight into an anvil .

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Trailblazermom]

Bevah thanks for sending me the PM and to everyone else who has replied so far.

Lisabob thanks for your suggestions. This is initially what I thought when this event was put on the calander, it would be like a come and see and ask questions type event.

I had suggested what you said about a Merit Badge opportunity so far it has not been done. This whole event was not setup by me or anyone on the Pack Commitee. It was done between the CM and another parent. Which is a whole nother issue.

Trailblazermom