Cowboy Trick Shooters at Cub Resident Camp?

[gwd-scouter]

I was up at our council camp this weekend picking up younger son from staff weekend. While there, the camp range director approached me with a question. I had been the Council Cub/Webelos Resident Camp Director for many years and she thought I could help with a concern she had.

 

Seems this year's resident camp has a cowboy theme. The organizers are planning to have a demonstration of Cowboys on horseback doing trick shooting at targets placed around the meadow (the large field in the middle of camp where we hold assemblies and flag ceremonies).

 

The Cubs will not be doing any shooting themselves at this time, merely observing the demonstration. The Cubs will be doing their BB and archery activities up in the designated range area with all the safety precautions in place. I don't have the shooting sports or G2SS in front of me right now, and it's been several years since I was involved at the Cub level, but aren't they prohibited from activities that involve firearms (other than BB guns). She feels that the whole activity is really not a good idea, especially since apparently the cubs and parents will just be standing around the meadow watching the event. There is no way to rope off the meadow and it is certainly not an approved range area. The cowboys will be firing period style pistols and rifles and using wax bullets.

 

Does anyone know of any specific prohibition against this type of activity, or are she and I just responding to a gut feeling that this is just plain wrong somehow?

 

[Stosh]

If this group doing the demonstration are associated with the national organization for cowboy trick shooters you shouldn't have any problem. These people are highly trained, skilled and extremely!!! safety conscious. They put on a good program, and compete on their own when not in front of a crowd. I have attended many events where these people have been featured performers and have wowed the crowds. If they are all nationally registered trick shooters and they are offering to do this for free or a nominal fee, get them! The boys and adults will have a great time.

 

These people do not shoot wax bullets! The flame discharge of a handgun will pop a baloon at 15-20' and the low-load shotgun loads will break the standard clay pigeon but not travel much beyond 100 yds.

 

I have seen these people put on public displays in a crowd situation where they carefully move the crowd into safe areas before they do their "High Noon Shootout" in the middle of a congested, no fences, no spectator areas kinds of setting and did so very safely.

 

My venture crew is Civil War reenacting and we do this type of thing all the time without any danger to the spectators at all.

 

If these trick shooters are all nationally registered shooters, you will have a safe and exciting program for the boys. I'm sure these people will be more than happy to hang around and work with the boys on gun safety and spectator interaction following their performance.

 

This is not an activity for the boys to participate, it is a program they attend. There is not any G2GS problem with it. We take our boys to the Ducks Unlimited Festival and there's guns, and bows, and all sorts of things for the boys to watch. Watching and participating are two different things. The national trick-shooter people will know how to set up their safety perameters and will provide all the know-how needed to insure the safety of all spectators. If you attempt to set up safety perameters, don't be surprised if they change them, they know more about safety and those weapons/horses than you do.

 

Stosh

[scoutldr]

Despite what Stosh says, I understand your concerns. Boys that age will mimic what they see. Is that the weapons-handling techniques you want them to emulate with their BB guns? Seeing the show would be entertaining for all...but I wouldn't do it at a Scout sponsored event. Just my opinion...

[packsaddle]

I also share your concern. This parent's imagination pictures an envious boy trying some of this stuff on a later date after he sneaks out to the park with daddy's pistol...

 

That said, the council, I think, takes all of the responsiblity here. If they have approved this demonstration then BSA must back it all the way. If I'm wrong about this I hope someone corrects me.

[nldscout]

I think you should go forward with this. I am sure this group is safe and most I have seen talk to the boys ahead of time.

 

Sounds like a safe, fun and exciting program, GO FOR IT!!!

[Stosh]

I am having difficulty in understanding the logic.

 

Boys watch trick shooting and then emulate their behavior.

 

Boys get the Whittlin' City and then..... ???

 

Boy learn fire building and then..... ???

 

We teach our boys dangerous activities. We teach them under the must safest of conditions with the highest level of precaution taken, showing the utmost responsibility that goes along with that knowledge. The trick shooters, if requested, will go to great lengths to emphasize this same respect for safety with young impressionable minds present.

 

If we are worried about such activities, archery and BB guns should not be allowed in the Cub Scout program. All fire should be under the exclustive domain of adults and no boy should be allowed under any circumstances to have a bladed tool in his hands.

 

[Lisabob]

I think I may be with JBlake on this one and actually that's a bit ironic because a) I'm a former range master of a cub day camp range where it was all about safety and respect for the fire arm first, and b) as a culture I think we glorify guns far too much, especially for young boys. In a nearby town not long ago there was a 12 or 13 year old boy who was shot to death by one of his peers - for $100 and some "fun" on a weekend. I find that so very sad.

 

But, done well, I think such a demonstration could be both safe and fun. If it were me, I'd want the demo to be toward the end of the camp (maybe after the boys have all done their BB shooting) and I'd explicitly request that the trick shooters spend serious time talking about safety and training with the boys.

 

If the demo is going to be before the boys have gone to the range, then the range master(s) need to be extra extra sure to talk clearly about the issue on a level that cub scout aged boys understand, prior to giving the boys access to the range. And maybe that includes a warning to everyone (parents too) that any boys who try to emulate the trick shooter would have to be removed from the range for safety reasons.

 

It is true that little boys do copy behavior. But keeping them from seeing this show isn't going to keep them from acting like "cowboys." They've already seen the behavior. "Everybody knows" that cowboys shoot things, right? And from this show they might actually get more information about the importance of training and safety than they would otherwise have, and in a setting where it might make a lasting impression - if the trick shooters are competent, as JBlake describes.

 

 

[Eagle1973]

Yeah, what Lisa said!

 

I believe that Cub Scouts ought to be able to use BB guns at the Pack level, not just at summer camp.

 

Start teaching firearm safety and respect as early as possible, remove the mystery early.

 

The 4H has the shooting sports availible to youth at age 9.

 

All said as a certified NRA/4H Rifle & Shotgun instructor having just returned from our troop's shooting weekend where no Scout came home with more holes then what he arrived with...

 

All qualified for the 2007 USA Shooting patch and some started on the Rifle MB and Shotgun MB.

[nldscout]

he reason for BB Guns and Archery rule is lack of qualified instructors and Age limits contained in state laws.

 

In NY no one may have a youth use a rifle who is less than 12 yrs old. Its a crime and does restrict some activities,

 

 

[Diver66]

I think this could be a great learning experence for the Cubs. Before the show get the participants to have a question and answer about how long, what training, and what safety they have to do to put on this show. Let them explain to the scouts that it takes a lot of practice and choreography to know where your "bullet" is going and where your intended "target" is. That the show is not just a bunch of guys out there playing cowboys. The participants would probably jump at the chance to tell the scouts how hard they work and that this is not something that just anyone can do without training.

[John-in-KC]

I really like the wasy Lisa put this in play.

 

I've shot weapons since I was a Scout myself. I've qualified on .22s, M1911A1s, M16s of multiple flavors (Vandenberg AFB had XM16E1s when I was in ROTC), M102s, M109A1/2/3, and M110A2s. That doesn't count M-60s and M2 HBMHGs (headspace and timing, anyone)? I've run ranges for Mother Army and for Scouting.

 

The children's own fertile imaginations provides more than enough "bang-bang, shootemup, you're DEAD." (How many Soldiers first played with the 3 second rush at home "playing war"?) They are at an age where re-enacting can inspire "fun with guns."

 

That's why I like Lisa's ideas for this so very much. They leverage some common sense onto the original idea.

[WVCubDad]

Ahh, the ubiquitous headspace and timing gage, the bane of all tank commanders, especially those that wore bars instead of chevrons....fun times, fun times. Amazing how much consternation two simple pieces of metal could cause!

 

"Ummm, sir? You did check the headspace and timing before we ran TT VIII, didn't you?"

 

"Uhhhh, yeah, pretty sure I did..."

 

Back on topic, I too like Lisa's approach and hope that the Camp allows it.

 

John

Tiger Den Leader

Pack 13

Potomac District

Shenandoah Area Council