Can Webelos be TOO prepared for Boy Scouts

[gwd-scouter]

In the thread about Boy Scout meetings being boring, I got the feeling that the poster had kind of "been there done that" with his Webelos Den.

 

Then again, we've had threads about just exactly what to do with Webelos Scouts that will properly prepare them for Boy Scouts.

 

Over the years I've met a lot of very enthusiastic Den Leaders that want to treat their 10-year-old Webelos Den like a mini-boy Scout troop.

 

So my question is: is there such a thing as overly preparing Webelos for Boy Scouts?

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

Overly Preparing? I'd say NO. Exposing Webelos to Scouting activities they are not mature enough to gain the full benefit from? I'd say YES. Example; My Council runs or used to run anyway (this year is in doubt) a Webelos I summer program at our local camp 40 miles away, this camp is a "Cub Scout Camp" for the summer. The Webelos I dens do most of the same things they did as Wolves and Bears, archery, BB gun, swimming (in a pool) except they work on Forester, or Outdoorsman, or Geologist as well. They also run a Webelos II camp at our Boy Scout Summer Camp 200 miles away. The Webelos II dens share the same Dinning Hall as Boy Scouts, get to ride horses, swim in a lake and do much the same things a first year scout would do. Argument has been raised that holding the Webelos II camp at our 4700 acre summer camp reduces the effect of a boys first year at camp as a Boy Scout and removes the carrot of "You'll get to go to summer camp" as a crossover treat because they have all ready been there. Jim Morrison upon being told the Doors would never be invited back to the Ed Sullivan Show "We just did the Sullivan Show".

LongHaul

 

[Beavah]

Yah, two problems gwd.

 

One is that lots of times packs/dens aren't that great about teachin' skills/independence. So the boys have the "experience" of doing something, but not the real gain from doing something, if you know what I mean. That can make it hard for a troop to then teach, if the boys have had the experience already "catered" or think they know it all already.

 

Second thing is that if you really do a good early job of teachin' a lot of outdoor skills for real, and the boys are da bright, mature types who really can handle it and get into it, then yeh have to make sure that the troop they cross into is ready to take it the next step, eh? Crossin' into a big-trailers, patrol-boxes car-camping unit isn't going to work for them. Yeh have to find the backpack & canoe, outdoor, high-adventure type troop, and that kind of troop will love havin' 'em, eh?

[Eagledad]

I once lost a whole den of first year scouts in three months. They knew their scouts skills better then my second year scouts and were bored in our troop. They weren't trouble maker type kids, but you know how it goes with students that need to bumped up a couple grades. I would be better prepared for a group like that next time.

 

An additional problem with overly prepared Webelos is they have to be mixed with other not so prepared Webelos.

 

I would much rather have new boys who have never camped over Webelos who camped every month for the past two years.

 

I wrote about this a few weeks ago, but I think preparing Webelos should have to do more with getting them comfortable in front of strangers and not being afraid of new challenges.

 

Barry

[resqman]

I am worried about this issue with my boy. I was his Den Leader the last 4 years. I often would try out various activities and skills to make sure I was prepared and had an idea how long it would take for planning reasons. He frequently had the opportunity to see it and or do it before the actual den/pack event.

 

Last week was "fill out the app and write the check" meeting for his new troop. I had printed out the the patrol badges from the web to help the boys choose a patrol name that already had a patch. All my Webelos earned their AOL so should be able to complete the Scout requirements the first night. He took his new Boy Scout handbook and sample patrol badges to the meeting prepared to earn his new rank and choose a patrol name. He was ready to lead the patrol. The Adult guide spent the meeting introducing them to Boy Scouts and the troop ways. My son was disappointed that the Adults led the meeting when he was prepared to have the boys run the show.

 

I know this is a boy lead troop because we visited a normal troop meeting and have talked with the leadership. The troop had an introductory meeting and I expect the next several meetings may be more adult lead than boy lead. My boy is ready but the troop is not.

[Lisabob]

I think it depends a lot on the troop. Some troops around here have a pretty decent program in place for new scouts. A few do not, or did not and have since changed (like the troop my son joined). For scouts joining a troop with an established and successful new scout program, the types of fears and newness that they need to be prepared for differs greatly, than from troops with no particular new scout program, where boys have not only the nature of troops/patrols vs. packs/dens and the independence issues, but also basic skill issues to deal with more or less on their own. Then too it depends on each boy's personality. Some boys adjust to new experiences quicker or more smoothly than others. For those who struggle with new situations or are less mature, more exposure as webelos might be crucial.

 

So I just don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer here, except at the obvious extremes.

 

And I like Beavah's point about ownership of experience. I was talking the other day about just this with a webelos leader who is also a good friend. They've done some pretty neat stuff with their boys including several camp outs, but it is qualitatively different from what those boys will do as boy scouts, where the moms and dads won't be smoothing the way for them. Hard to understand that until you see it up close though.

[Its Me]

Too prepared?

 

Eagledad wrote that he lost a den due to a "been-there done-that" attitude. I am not sure if you re-visited this by speaking to boys and their parents if you would come to the same conclusion.

 

MY den just had their arrow of light ceremony saturday so I will comment while it is still fresh.

 

The tenderfoot requirement is a cubscout refresher. Now I don't have a problem with this because all new scouts will be brought to the same level. Plus, when teaching math for example, each progression is a mix of old and new stuff. But I could see where if these requirements didn't have some freshness to a scout he could get bored. Now the second class requirements looks a little fresher and the First class a little fresher still.

 

How did I prepare my Webelos? Beside the program requirements, Engineering, Showman, Outdoorsman.. during their Webelos I year I began to encourage the boys to sleep in one tent together and their parents in another. Out of the 14 Webelos in three dens, five did this. So 9 Webelos have never slept in a tent without their mom or dad sleeping next to them. I think this is a big jump for both the boy and his parents to overcome.

 

We did meal plans and kept getting the boys to do a portion of the meal. It wasn't perfect. The boys could do a task such as cook a burger, or cut an onion but even on our last campout my boys couldn't seem to put it all together, the prep, cook and clean aspect.

 

I liked one previous posters comments on this topic. To prepare a Webelos scout for boy scout make sure they can eat food they are not fond of, go to the bathroom in a stinky outhouse and get along without mom there to make everything right. Its more of an idependence thing than a skills thing.

 

Time will only tell if I properly prepared my boys for Boy Scouts. We cross the end of this month.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

resqman,

 

I am the lead ASM for new scouts in our troop. We have 3 additional ASM's for new scouts and 4 Troop Guides. Last year we had 24 new scouts split into 2 patrols. As of now, we have 11 new scouts and will probably have at least that many crossover between now and sometime in May. I commend you for preparing your Cubs for the outdoors and Boy Scouting. Not to offend you, but I do believe you were being a little over ambitious to expect your son to walk in onthe first night and lead the other new scouts in choosing a patrol name.

 

We regularly get boys from at least 4 different packs, so we get boys with different levels of ability not only as individuals, but based on the pack they came from. We also get some boys who never were in Cubs. While there are boys who have "been there, done that" and walk thru the door gung ho and ready to go, there are boys who do not. Plus, we get them from February thru May. Heck, last year we had a couple who came to us in September and October and had to be integrated in with guys who had been in the NSP since February.

 

While we try to deal with each boy as an individual and appreciate his uniqueness among the patrol, we basically start with a clean slate rather than fast track anyone. The first few meetings will involve learning about how patrols function and also how the troop functions. Is it all lecture? No. We also start on skill instructions and have a game time that incorporates the skill. These are designed to work towards fulfilling rank requirements. The meetings are also to prepare them for their first campout with the troop. The vast majority of instruction comes from the TG's assigned to the NSP(s).

 

At this stage of the new scout's career, he is a student and not a leader. That will come with tenure and experience. Our troop has certain criteria for each position that is based on activity, rank and experience. You cannot be a PL without having served as an APL. You cannot run for SPL without having been an ASPL and you can't be an ASPL without having been a PL. For the NSP's their leadership are TG's who will lead by example and involve them in learning the functions of patrol leadership as the year progresses.

 

Sometimes I think troops do a disservice by selling scout with a little too much sizzle. They promote high adventure, shooting, etc. True, they can do those things.....later. Most summer camps do not allow boys to shoot until 14, some at 13. Philmont has age requirements. A boy at 10.5 can't do those things yet. At the troop level, some of those things are more possible to do than at the council or national level though. You might be able to take a 12 year old on a week long 30 mile backpacking trip where he can't do Philmont.

 

Well, I've started rambling now. Bottom line is that a troop usually has to take a group of new scouts and present the program to them on equal terms because they don't yet know where that boy is in his maturity, knowledge and experience.

[Eagledad]

>>The tenderfoot requirement is a cubscout refresher. Now I don't have a problem with this because all new scouts will be brought to the same level. Plus, when teaching math for example, each progression is a mix of old and new stuff. But I could see where if these requirements didn't have some freshness to a scout he could get bored.

[resqman]

"Not to offend you, but I do believe you were being a little over ambitious to expect your son to walk in on the first night and lead the other new scouts in choosing a patrol name."

 

No offense taken. I agree that I should not expect my son to be elected Patrol Leader and run the show the first night. What I though might happen is the adult advisor would plant the seed of choosing a patrol name. The boys may have a brain storming session and throw out really outrageous names. In doing some research it looks like custom patrol badges cost about $10 per boy while standard cost about $2 per boy. IF there was discussion about patrol names, then I was hoping to steer them into choosing a standard BSA badge or from a list of "standard" custom badges to keep costs down and availability up. Kind of a Be Prepared type activity on my part.

 

Secondly of the 8 boys joining that night, 6 were from my Pack and had earned their AOL. In reveiwing the Scout rank requirements, earning their Scout rank the first night might have been doable with the exception of the YP requirement. It was not uncommon for new Cubs to earn their Bobcat the first meeting and I view the Scout rank as a similar introductory rank.

 

As an adult, I understand the first meeting or even first several meetings are probably going to be more administrative and getting to know each other type activities. As a Parent, I want to be prepared to make my boy prepared to stop being a Webelo and become a Boy Scout as easily as possible.

 

As has been discussed elsewhere, it is often hard for Adult Cub leaders to step back and allow Boy led Boys Scouts run its course. Not sure where to draw the fuzzy line of the adult providing the boy with lots of preparation outside the troop to allow the boy to enter into the new troop culture.

 

The troop has a program where the adults must attend a 4 part parent orientation the first 4 nights the new boy joins the troop. The parents sit in on a troop committee meeting, get a 3 ring binder of information regarding the troop, fill out applications, pay fees, view presentations by the various committee chairpersons, etc. all in a plot to get the adults active in the troop (and keep them out of the boys way long enough for the boys to transition).

 

I understand the need to bring everyone up to a common level of knowledge. I have been a good boy and sat quietly through the parent orientation. Oh, I did ask if the troop pays for Woodbage when they were mentioning the troop pays for adult training. Otherwise I have only nodded appreciatively during the other presentations.

[Stosh]

I have done the Cubbing stuff, the Webelos stuff, the Scouting stuff, the Venturing stuff, and there is very little difference. I was just pointing out to someone this very evening how my NBP member quoted me out of his new Boy Scout Handbook that he had already passed the Scout rank requirements because he had the AOL. I haven't had anyone call me out like that since someone read a drill manual for the Venturing crew that I have. Boys are all alike and function the same way. All one has to do is provide opportunities, and sit back and enjoy.

 

I am the ASM responsible for the honor's patrol in our troop. They have their own identity, their own patrol flag, staffs, hats, and neckerchiefs. They have different responsibilities than the rest and are under heavier expectations than the average boy in the troop.

 

This week, the SM asked me to orient the NBP into the troop. I sat down with them and said. What do you want to do? They talked about their patrol identity, why some had staffs and others didn't, if they could have their own hats and scarves, etc. They are all AOL and the one boy asked when he was going to get his scoutmaster's conference for the Scout rank. (Sharp kid!)

 

I said they could have any or all of these suggestions if they wanted to work at it. The only requirement was that all members of the patrol had to agree on it so that we didn't have a patrol of haves and have-nots. They thought that was fair and they would discuss it amongst themselves over the next week or so.

 

The interesting thing about the whole process was that members of the patrols that were not the honors patrol or the NBP came and asked why those patrols got to do special things. My answer was, this isn't "special things", these are things scouts can do if they wish anytime they as a group decides to do it. Until someone comes along and says you can't do something, anything's fair game.

 

The best source of any boy's involvement and progress is his own imagination. Tap into it and use it. If your group is getting stale and boring, you are not engaging the power of the boys' minds! I don't care if that boy is in first grade or a senior in high school. It works the same.

 

Stosh

[Wyndfall]

Speaking as the mom of 3 Boy Scouts (Eagle, Star, 1st class), currently a Cubmaster and Webelos Den Leader, I think it is possible to overprepare Webelos. I bridged the Web IIs in my den in March over to the troop where my sons are. I felt they were adequately ready for the troop. My oldest son was their den chief, and in January of the Web I year we opened den meetings with the Cub Scout promise, etc and closed with the Boy Scout Oath, law and outdoor code. This way, the Webelos had an understanding of the Boy Scout stuff needed for the Webelos Badge, and by sheer repetition, left the pack knowing the oath, etc. From the feedback I received from troop leaders, this is greatly appreciated. I have sat several BOR for the troop and was appalled to find that there were Scouts aiming for Star that couldn't get the oath right. My son aged out before the Webs bridged and then served as Assistant Den Leader. Before the final pack meeting, we gave each Web a mini-board of review for the AOL. (That way they can't all answer at once.) We felt they were definitely ready to bridge. But there really are experiences that new scouts should only have as a Boy Scout, especially with camping and outdoor activities.

 

Good point though, about picking the correct troop, it makes all the difference in a scout's experience.