Requirements for Den Chief?

[shortridge]

Wow. Just, wow. That statement is so full of fail it boggles my mind.

 

No unit can change advancement requirements by putting POR rules in place? Well, how about LDS units! (I don't mean to single them out, but they're the example that sprang most quickly to my mind.)

 

By separating 11-year-olds from the rest of the troop, they don't allow the 11-year-old boys to serve as SPLs - thus adding an additional requirement, that of age, to serve in that POR. It's the same as SMB's example of requiring DCs to be at least First Class.

 

[ Sarcasm Alert! ] But if that's the way National says it's supposed to be, I therefore fully expect the National Youth Development Team to issue a bulletin within the week informing all LDS units to cease and desist this horrible, awful practice of COs adapting the Scouting program to their own needs. [ Sarcasm End }

 

Give me a break.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[ScoutMythBuster]

What I am citing is exactly what the National Youth Development Team is stating as the Policy and Rules for a Den Chief. I am presenting this as fact, not adding. After discussing this with everybody here, I came to realize that the written explanation is inadequate and no matter what is said people are going to keep making up their own requirements because of whatever reason. I am sorry that people cannot accept the fact that they do not have the right not the authority to modify or change National Policy. It is this mentality is responsible for so many problems, not just in BSA but almost everywhere in the world. And POR are part of advancement, even if it is not being used that way. So it is protected under Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures.

 

And, just in case you are wondering where my information comes from ... you can request it yourself from national. Uniform issues, national awards, Boy Scout and Cub Scout program questions: rhonda.devaney@scouting.org

 

[ScoutMythBuster]

wow. I admit I have never dealt with LDS units. The closest thing I seen is that Packmaster and Troopmaster asks if your unit is an LDS unit. Now you got me thinking, I have to check it off and see what changes. Thank You. Also, I will research this a little more for my own knowledge. Do you have any links for information on LDS Guidelines? (no sarcasm)

 

I do believe that when it comes to Patrol Method, Rank Requirements and POR's there should be one set of rules. Every youth participant in the BSA should have the same oppurtunity to participate. No and's, if's or but's... Now, we had mentioned Local Policies before, after researching a little I have seen some footnotes for certain MB that references obeying the local regulations, ei shotgun shooting. That I understand. BSA Policy cannot trump local, state or federal laws. We would not be good citizens if we did that.

 

And to let everybody know, I do appreciate all of your points of view. This is exactly what I was looking for. I needed to see how a poorly scripted Description and/or Requirement can cause so much controversy and debate. And that is exactly what this is, poorly scripted.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

SMB,

While certain items such as uniforms, advancement requirements, awards, etc do have established requirements by national that cannot be modified by COs, and part of that is the patent, copyright, trademark, whatever that the BSA owns, other things CAN be modified by the COs as per the charter agreement which I cited and gave a link to.

 

Further an example has been given of a major CO that sets standard on who are its leaders, both youth and adult, still uses the older 3 year CS program versus the current 5 year model, and divides the troop into separate groups (11 year old only group that meets separately from the rest of the troop and 12 and 13 yos only.). All perfectly allowable by BSA b/c it's part of the agreement with the BSA and the CO.

 

I'm sorry to say that whoever is telling you at national that a unit cannot place restriction on who can serve as a leader in the unit, both youth and adult either isn't understanding the question you are asking, or has not read the literature on the topic, or doesn't understand that the difference between a position of responsibility and advancement. Yes PORs are required FOR advancement, but they are NOT advancement and do not fall under the policies you keep citing.

 

Also the person you are citing is an administrative assistant in the department. While administrative assistants are the ones who keep everyone in check and organized, they sometimes do not understand the big picture, or the ins and outs of scouting. Heck I had a nice "conversation" with my old boss in supply, a member of the national executive staff, on summer camp operations when supply was piloting having scout shops run camp trading posts. they couldn't understand why we had to be open during the day when "the scouts are in classes," and why we should close during camp wide games or close once the last camper left "so that staff can still buy things." Was able to convince the boss to stay open during the day, and close as soon as the last camper left on Saturday. But could never get them to understand why we should close during the camp wide games. They had to work Jambo to understand what I was saying.

[Eagle92]

SMB,

best thing to do is PM Gary_Miller or bacchus as they are both LDS scouters. One cavetat as I have learned, not all LDS units are following the LDS program. To quote one LDS scouter, "The further away from Salt Lake City you get, the laxer the relationship with scouting is." gary and bac will tell you how their program is suppsoe to be run.

 

Also check out this site on LDS scouting http://ldsbsa.org/

 

Now in reference to patrol methods, as KUDU will point out the BSA is not following the PM as envisioned by both BP and GBB. Also the concept of a NSP and TG have only been around since about 1990. While some troops do use them, others stick to the older mixed age patrols. Some units allow 6 month terms for PLs with no possibility of reelection, some do 1 year terms, some allow reelection, and some say you are the PL until A) you are booted out of the job or B) you don't want it anymore.

 

And don't get me started about blue cards. never saw one as a scout, and only saw one for the first time as an employee for supply!

 

You see while scouting is a national, ok really international, movement, all scouting is local.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Beavah]

Holy smoke! Quite a resurrection of an old thread.

 

ScoutMythBuster, I reckon you are creating some really bad Myths of your own, eh?

 

To quote from the Scoutmaster's and SPL's Handbooks:

 

Each troop sets its own age, rank, and other qualification standards for its senior patrol leader (and, by extension, for other positions of responsibility as well).

 

So it's perfectly kosher for a Scoutmaster to put a rank requirement or an age requirement on a position of responsibility according to da program materials.

 

Now, a Scoutmaster or a troop Committee may decide it doesn't like that notion, that it's not in keeping with what their Chartered Organization wants to teach youth, and open up SPL and other PORs to all comers. So even though da national program materials don't give an option for a troop not to set such requirements in some way, a troop may still choose not to.

 

It's a youth program. CO's use da materials to run their youth outreach, eh? The unit is not owned nor operated by da BSA, the BSA is not liable for its supervision, and therefore does not have a say in exactly how da program materials are utilized. All they ask is that when certain things are utilized - the award system, the uniform, the name "Scouting" - that they be in compliance. But a unit can choose not to use all of the POR's listed in the books, can choose not to use advancement at all, can choose not to admit boys over age 14, you name it.

 

That's Scouting. If yeh really feel that COs and units should all use the BSA materials verbatim and without deviation, then yeh need to find yourself another organization, eh? That's not da way the BSA works. Honestly, I'm not sure there's any youth organization yeh can point to like that, so yeh might have to start your own . Rest assured, with that approach da organization will be a lot smaller than the BSA.

 

In the mean time, your role as a district volunteer is to support all those different units, with different approaches, eh? Not to go about like a bull in a China shop tellin' everybody they're wrong, and only your way is kosher. That will get yeh removed as a district volunteer faster than you can say Jimmeny Cricket.

 

So take a deep breath and step away from da cliff. In da grand scheme of things, whether a unit leader does or doesn't put a rank requirement on the Den Chief position is a small thing.

 

Now, as I said in da other thread, I do agree with yeh that in most cases the district should not be imposing other requirements beyond those of the unit. That's not their place. To be fair, training can be limited if there's limited space, just as a summer camp can put an age or rank requirement on some MB classes if there's limited space. But that should be done up front, eh? I think we'd all agree with yeh that hauling the kids out of the class and yelling at 'em is not the way to handle an oversubscribed class.

 

Beavah