boy did i ever open a can of worms... cubs and knives

[JeffD]

i had the parent of a tiger tell me that his son wanted to earn the whitling chip so he could have a pocketknife at campouts. most all of the leaders were there and it was mentioned that we thoght it might be something for the rank of bear and above to be earned, but i mentioned i would look into it.

 

i was given the following as 'proof' that only bears can earn it.

http://www.geocities.com/~PACK215/whittlin-chip.html

http://www.macscouter.com/CubScouts/PowWow04/classes/knives.doc

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/award/award-434.asp

 

i disagreed and tried to use actual BSA policy from the cub leader handbook and guide to safe scouting. i even found an exellent link from this forum that provided some of the info i was looking for. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=97681

 

i would rather my son know how to safely handle a pocketknife and will teach him regardless.

 

it seems that some of the other leaders are afraid of a bunch of knife weilding maniacs. i think that we dont have to give the card to those that dont earn it - and carrying a pocketknife is not a God given right - at least so far as cub scouting is concerned.

 

 

[nldscout]

This is the problem with depending on non-official websites, all of them that you listed are out of date and donot relect changes.

[Cubmaster Randy]

I would refer them to the age approriate guidlines for scouting activities. It has been updated and tigers are not allowed to use pocket knives

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

 

From a practical standpoint, I would do it as late in the Bear as possible although a wolf could earn it. It really depends on the boy and his parent(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Randy)

[JeffD]

thanks -

 

the funny thing is that the 'age appropriate' link that cubmaster randy posted is different from the one i had found.. and they are both hosted on the same site.

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/chart.html shows that tigers are 'allowed' to use knives.

 

i have 1 tiger and his dad (who is also another tiger leader) and the kid is gung ho to carry a knife to campouts. for what reason i have no idea.

[JeffD]

i figured out the reason for the differences.

 

it seems that the .pdf file was updated, while the .html version is different. (or is it the other way around? )

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/

 

links to both are at the top of the above page

[SpongeBob]

At resident camp last summer, I talked with the Wolf parents about earning it then and there. I suggested that I would give my son another year to mature, and maybe we'd do it at resident camp next summer.

 

Surprisingly, all the parents agreed with me.

 

I would suggest having a meeting with the parents, and see if they can come to a consensus about it. Maybe their points of view will influence the parent that wants their kid with a knife.

[JeffD]

nldscout - i agree. people find something onthe net and take it for the truth. i felt myself being as diplomatic as possible when i cited the guide for safe scouting and a cub scout leader handbook - and not some random page that may have been updated in 1994.

 

thats why i appreciate the input here from those who can also offer real life experience.

[SR540Beaver]

Jeff,

 

I'm an ASM for new scouts in our Troop. The very first question asked by each boy crossing over is when can they earn their Totin' Chit and Firem'n Chit. It makes them feel grown up and is a badge of honor. They really have very little need for either at that stage of their scouting life. Needless to say, it is not the first thing we teach them. There are many vital skills they need to learn liking setting up a tent and cooking before anything else.

[JeffD]

spongebob - if the adult asking were not another tiger leader, i would think that would work better.

 

if he were to get it - i would think he would be under so much scrutiny that he would be bound to have corners torn off easily and very quickly

 

it makes you wish national would say - "the whittling chip can be earned by scouts at the following ranks...."

[Cubmaster Randy]

Barring National from saying any more than they have (depending on which website you use , it might be in the best interest of your pack to have the pack committee to get together and formulate a policy for your pack.

 

With that is also a good policy to instruct the parents as to the rules to using the knife as well

[ScoutNut]

The "Guide to Safe Scouting" is on the BSA National website.

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/toc.html

 

It is updated regularly. The updates go online here (& are detailed at the end) before you will see them in the printed version at your local Scout Shop. The "Age-Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities" is an appendix at the end of the G2SS and are updated along with the Guide.

 

This updated appendix is what Cubmaster Randy linked to.

 

The HTML chart you linked to is an online copy of a printed hard copy flyer. This has not been updated with a new picture.

 

Always go with the actual "Guide to Safe Scouting" link.

 

Tell your Tiger families that Sorry, but according to the most current BSA Guide to Safe Scouting, the BSA does not recommend pocketknives for Tigers. They are not considered age appropriate.(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[Lisabob]

This is one case where I would be very likely to say NO. Just because the G2SS and the age-appropriate guidelines don't/didn't explicitly prohibit Tigers from earning the whittling chip doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea for them to do so. 6 year olds are not known for their ability to engage in abstract thought (what will happen if I do this...) or for understanding the long-term or even permanent nature of some consequences to their actions. They live in the immediate moment most of the time. I want to ensure that a boy who earns his whittling chip has the judgment and maturity to use his knife properly and I doubt most first graders possess that.

 

As a practical matter - I'm a believer that we learn to use tools in context, ie, when we have an appropriate application and need for them. I believe this helps develop a healthy respect for the power of the tool and likewise, avoids un-necessarily scaring kids/parents or creating phobias. I'm not sure what your typical 6 year old needs to use a knife for in this day and age, in our society?

 

If having a pocket knife and whittling chip is really about feeling "grown up" then what are you going to offer this boy down the road when he wants to feel more grown up again? Sometimes I think it is ok to say, "you're not quite ready for that yet but you will be in a year or two." And then maybe suggest something else that he can do NOW instead. Maybe he'd like to do some simple wood kit projects like building a tool box or bird house, for example.

 

If the parent persists and the consensus of your pack or den is that you don't want to do this, I think you're within your rights to say that he is welcome to let his boy have a knife at home but not at cub scouts at this point in time.

[evmori]

What is a Tiger going to use a knife for?

[SSScout]

Since the "pirates Code" er, I mean the Cub Scout Guidelines are so vague on Whittlin' Chip requirements, here is what our Pack did. (best of my memory)

Only Bear or Webelos may earn WC.

The candidate Cubs were given a permission slip for their parents to consider. Yes or no.

The day of the class, the Cubs were taught about different types of knives and how they should be handled (folding pocket knives only for Cubs, but other knives exhibited and discussed... cooking, clasp, lock back, fixed blade, etc.)

How to sharpen a knife. How to look at the blade critically. "Listen for the sharp". Carborundum stone, steel, diamond hone.

Opening and closing. (open handed)

Passing a knife to another. (handle first, edge away from hand. "thank you")

We talked about carrying the knife (never to school, only with parents permission. Never "show off", at Scout activity)

We talked about LOSING the privilege.

When we were satisfied they were serious about the "rules", we gave them a big bar of soap and we talked about carving (establish an arms length "Safety Zone", always away from yourself, be aware of those around you, push with your thumb, support your work).

And we made animals, castles, cars, jetplanes of soap. and a mess.

But the boys knew about knives and safety.

YiS

 

 

[eagle-pete]

That's funny, SSScout. Our pack did exactly the same thing.

 

Have you been talkin' to our CC?

 

Eagle Pete