A kid pulling a knife on other kids

[Lisabob]

Beavah, if this boy were a little older I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But we aren't dealing with a boy scout here; we're dealing with a cub scout. Admittedly there are shades of gray (difference between a 2nd year webelos scout in November and a first year boy scout in February isn't much) but I still think it is worth bearing in mind that this kid is probably only 10 years old. What would be appropriate for a 12-13-14+ yr old boy might not work here. Not to mention that standing up in front of a pack of 100 is pretty daunting. Many kids, rather than do that, would just quit. I'm not sure I see how putting the boy in that position as a cub scout where quitting is a likely outcome will help him.

 

On the other hand, maybe talking about the situation in the den with all of the boys present would be more logical. Those are the other boys who really need to know that the situation was dealt with (post facto) in an appropriate manner anyway. The pack's Tigers probably don't even know that this whole matter took place.

 

Anyway I tend to agree w/ It's Me; it is easier to provide harsh suggestions in the abstract than when you are faced with a flesh and blood boy and his family and you don't want to see them quit. Reality tempers those instincts toward harsh punishment.

 

SSScout, I did WB in 2003. There are "what if" scenarios at various points in the weekends but I do not recall them being a major focus of the training. Of course things have been revamped a bit since then and role playing of that nature might be more prevalent now.

 

 

[Beavah]

Many kids, rather than do that, would just quit. I'm not sure I see how putting the boy in that position as a cub scout where quitting is a likely outcome will help him.

 

Nah, if it were true that one "public correction" or behavioral consequence was enough to make a kid quit an activity, then the kid had very little invested in that activity and would end up quittin' at the next moment of adversity anyway (a rainy campout, not winnin' the Pinewood Derby, etc.).

 

Public disappointments and consequences are a part of life, and are certainly a part of every youth activity, sport, etc. And kids aren't quittin' right and left. I certainly hope that every parent of a child older than 3 regularly teaches courtesy by having their child "say their sorry" when appropriate. And my point was that it's far "harsher" to a kid to not bring the incident to a definitive conclusion than it is to ask him to apologize to people he hurt or whose reputation he stained. That long, lingering ambiguity and distrust is far more likely to cause a kid to quit. Better that he "do his time and get rehabilitated" in everyone's eyes.

 

So I think the under-the-rug approach is usually dead wrong for the boy on behavioral and social psychology grounds. But even if I'm tryin' to smell sweet amidst nothin' but cow pies, as scout leaders we also have to remember that we're not here for a particular boy, either one who is a "favorite" or one we feel "needs scouting." We're here for all da boys, eh? Yeh do what's right, yeh do what you can, but sometimes you let a sheep go because it's the best thing for the flock. A boy who doesn't care enough about the troop to mumble "I'm sorry" after threatenin' peers with a knife is probably one of those sheep, eh?

 

[JeffD]

maybe its too harsh for tigers to know that they shouldnt bully others... or too harsh that wolves are told a scenario where other boys are throwing something at them and how they can get out of a bad situation.. or harsh for bears and webelos to know that there are consequences to their actions... both now and for the rest of their lives. lets leave that to the parents and teachers. we just need to show them how to camp - build fires - and get cool badges. (please note tongue firmly planted in cheek.)

 

it sounds to me like people are more interested in not hurting anyone's feelings than anything else. afterall, you dont want to be known as the 'mean leader' who doesnt let you have any fun and is always there to keep everyone in line....

[Lisabob]

Jeff if you're referring to what I wrote then I would suggest you look again. This isn't about not wanting to be "mean" and it isn't about "mollycoddling" a boy. I'm in complete agreement with It's Me and others(read previous posts) that the boy should lose his knife, his whittling chit, and that he should have to write a letter of apology and that his parents should be in attendance. I have not suggested that we should allow webelos (or anybody else) to get away with bullying and threatening each other with knives. My point is simply that we need to ensure the punishment is effective without going way overboard. As for what's appropriate vs. overboard, Beavah and I disagree there. But that does not equate to sweeping it under the rug nor does it equate to being unwilling to take necessary steps to keep people safe and "in line" as you have suggested. And I would say the same applied to It's Me. He had to deal with the situation in coordination with a bunch of other people, while all we on this forum have to do is play armchair quarterback, and I think he did a pretty good job.

 

 

[eagle-pete]

Well, nothing's going on over in the Wood Badge forum, so I thought I'd come over here and see what's happening...

 

WOW! 63 posts on this topic alone! Man, do we know how to beat a dead horse!

 

Well after reading the 60 other posts after Jeffrey H's original recommendations, I still agree with the way he would handle it.

 

Jeffrey H wrote:

"The wonderful world of boys!

 

This kid appears to have a pattern of pulling a knife and here are my suggestions:

 

1) His Whittlin Chip card is taken away for at least six months. He has clearly violated the whittlin chip promise.

 

2) Suspend him from at least 4 den meetings. If hes serious about being a good Scout, hell be back. Keep in touch with him while he is away and let him and the parents know that you care about him.

 

3) Reinforce the Core Values of Cub Scouting with your Den or Pack concerning the bullying. If you are not doing it already, integrate the teaching of Core Values as a part of the overall Pack and Den programs. The boys dont have to memorize them, but they should have awareness that being a Cub Scout is a little more than just wearing the uniform.

 

4) Reward good behavior alongside the punishment phase. Encourage him to do better and that he is capable of making better choices.

 

If the boy is unresponsive to the above, then I would recommend his removal from the Pack and barred from all future Pack activities and outings."

 

JeffD

I agree... There's far too much P.C. in this world as it is. The BSA has never apologized for it's policies and neither should we. Where there is a question of the safety of the boys, we cannot afford to worry about offending someone. Go ahead, offend them! But keep the boys safe!

 

Beavah

Yeah! I say we tie da boy down at pack meeting, hook up a car battery with some electrodes, and see how much juice he can handle, eh? Why wait for police to take action on this "criminal". Now that'd make for an entertaining pack meeting!

 

OK, so I'm taking Beavah's comments a little to the extreme.. (really?)

 

What ever happened to the concept of "publicly praising, privately criticizing"? We're talking about a TEN YEAR-OLD who needs to change some unacceptable behavior. Can't this be done through holding a meeting with the mother and pack leaders? Have specific steps to correct the behavior? I think I read that in a manual somewhere...

 

I believe "It's Me" is on the right track. It appears they have established some appropriate action and recommendations and even some reinforcement of safe scouting for all dens.

 

Our chief responsibility as youth leaders is safety in any situation. No, training does not cover every conceivable scenario that could possibly arise... We have a Guide to Safe Scouting for that purpose. I agree that some role-playing training is helpful, but only inasmuch as the concepts of safe scouting are emphasized so that they can be applied to any number of situations which can potentially place scouts or leaders in a dangerous situation.

 

The other thing is parents. How much do we include them in the program? How much are they willing to be included? Where do we draw the line when it is time for the parents to step in? These are questions every pack needs to address. I feel the more we distance the leaders from the parents, the more difficult our jobs become. It is an enormous advantage when dealing with the youth to have the parents on our side. This situation with the boy pulling a knife is classic - mom is trying to defend the boy while looking after her own interests, and the leaders see a much different picture - never the twain shall meet. If there was already an established relationship of trust between mom and the leaders, how would this situation have been different? Would it have even gone to this extent at all? I don't know. I don't think anyone could say, but one thing is clear... We need the parents on our side!

 

Finally, just a few things that come to mind... (1) Our first job is to keep the boys safe, (2) we don't publicly humiliate or punish, and (3) parents are our number one ally.

 

Eagle Pete(This message has been edited by eagle-pete)

[Its Me]

 

Almost one month to the day after the event occured the boy has turned in his knife and a well written apology. The appology really hit the points that I would have hoped him to understand. He states that he is sorry for pulling the knife and that by so doing he violated the Whittling chip promise. He mentions the air potatoes and the hat incidents but he acknowledges that his reactions to these events were wrong. In general a well thought out apology. The note and knife were turned in away from the other boys and was witnessed by me, another leader and the boy's father. Soon after this the boy's gloomy mood was replaced with normal scout participation and good cheer. I bet it was a big relief for this boy to end this chapter in his life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[eagle-pete]

It's Me

 

That sounds like it worked out ok. You got an apology, the boy is staying in scouting, the parents seem to be in agreement with the results, and nobody went to jail. Congratz!

 

Eagle Pete

 

 

[SSScout]

Itsme::

 

I am also glad to hear of your settlement. I bet the sigh of relief from the Pack Committee could be heard down the block.

Now, are you leading the next Whittlin' Chip class?