A kid pulling a knife on other kids

[Gonzo1]

Eagle-Pete,

All I'm saying is that IMO, cubs are too young for pocket knives. Webelos are getting older though, the scout involved was a webelo and may not have the maturity to own, much less use a knife.

 

 

[Beavah]

Get your leaders properly trained.

 

Yah, I may be wrong here, but can anybody tell me where in any BSA training module there is any substantive discussion and practice of managing groups of kids of different ages, providing discipline, and/or dealing with "serious" discipline cases? I can't think of any.

 

Trainin' is a good start, it provides a decent overview. But it ain't usually enough to develop any real knowledge or skills, and it certainly isn't a panacea.

[nldscout]

Like it or not what this young man did is a crime. In most states he would be judged a juvinile delinquent. Like I said its time to nip this in the bud. He should have been sent home right there on the spot, no discussion, no talking. Call the parents and send him home.

[Its Me]

Well the pack leaders met tonight with the primary topic being the knife incident. Here are our decisions.

 

The knife and whittling chip will be discretely turned into the cub master until cross over.

The boy will re-earn his whittling chip by re-learning and teaching one of our Bear dens the safe use and handling of a knife.

The boy will write an open letter of apology to be turned into me his den leader.

One of his parents needs to be present for all scouting functions.

 

As for the bullying. Each den will be asked to review bullying with their den. One of the leaders will speak with her child's group psychologist to suggest an effective method for teaching anti-bullying. A skit or similar easily understood method will be used during the December pack meeting to teach the harmful effects of bullying.

 

The DE was consulted twice on this issue and for the most part these decisions are agreement with his recomendations.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Cub Scout Leaders Guide is an introduction and cannot possibly cover an in-depth analysis of all of the problems that a person might encounter. It has a large array of relevant issues for many situations and programs. I respect what Scouting has done in writing their training manuals because they limited it but not at the expense of essential data.

 

So, what does the CSLG say about this situation? These vwere gleaned from many chapters.

 

One reason to have policies:

To protect the Health and Safety of all members and assure them of a program that will hold their interest.

 

Policies:

Two deep leadership for every outing.

Read the Safe Guide to Scouting before going on any outing.

Adequate leadership and supervision helps prevent accidents.

Use the Buddy System.

Keep the group together.

Knife Safety- Be careful that you do not cut yourself of any other person.

Cub Scout age boys may not use sheath knives.

Always have Emergency Procedures in place.

Boys are beginning to see the value of trying to get along with others at this young age.

Physical violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members or verbal insults have no place in Scouting.

If confronted with threats or bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek the help from their Pack leaders.

Adult Leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of the youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed of the problems and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

The Pack committee should review serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action, including possible revocation of the youths membership in the Pack.

Make sure that group activities remain fun and challenging. The other element of preparation is planning enough to do and having enough physical and human resources on hand to keep the group going.

Boys sense when some behaviors are getting out of control. In these instances they expect adult leaders to protect them and to restore order.

Webelos overnighters introduces the Scout and his parents to the Boy Scouts camping program.

Provide plenty of adult supervision.

Have a well planned program and communicate it to all leaders.

BALOO is required training for overnight activities.

 

Most of these items have been echoed by several already. The value of this information gives a good start on how to prevent misbehavior and what to do if in fact it does happen.

 

fb

[JeffD]

hey 'its me' -

whats the reasoning behind a "descrete turning in of the 'chip' until cross-over"?

 

not to beat the dead horse in front of the wagon - but shouldnt others also learn from this? maybe learning from the mistakes of others will mean that another boy wont have to go through the same as this boy did. they would learn that there are consequences to their actions.

 

i dont think he should give up the 'chip' in front of all at the next pack meeting - and i am sure some of the kids likely know whats 'really' going on , but if the kids knew there were real consequences - and not just idle threats - they might think twice..

 

just my rambling $0.02

 

[Beavah]

Adult Leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of the youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed of the problems and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

Yah, Fuzzy, thanks for helpin' me make my point.

 

All that material. Trainin' covers only a fraction of it, and quickly. And out of all that material, we get one sentence that adults should monitor and intercede, but nuthin' at all about how.

 

The natural thing, especially for cub scouts where parents are supposed to be around, is to leave it to the individual parent, or a loose "cloud" of adults where no one is specifically responsible. In all the rest of society, it's considered rude or quite inappropriate to "intercede" with other people's kids, eh? And it's hard, when the boy may not know you that well, and it's harder when boys are in a group. And it's hardest when somethin' happens that you've never thought of before, like a boy brandishing a knife.

 

Yah, heck, no where in the materials or in trainin' is a cub leader ever even told that a good option in a serious offense is to send the boy home.

 

Seen it over and over again. BSA trainin' is completely inadequate when it comes to managing youth behaviors.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Good job, Its Me!

 

But I have the same question as JeffD. Why the discrete turning in? If you are worried about embarrassing someone, don't be. This is a serious incident & the entire unit should see what happens when things like this happen. Consequences for actions!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear]

Bev,

 

I disagree (with some reservations). I believe that the material is proactive and describes what to do and when. The point being is that leaders are in charge and should have an active planned program to prevent such incidents. When incidents do happen, then it also describes actions to be taken after the incident, such as getting parents involved and going before the committee. I don't believe that there should be extensive step by step instructions.

 

The training is long enough without going into more details. There is a section on discipline that explains to the leader how to approach situations and how to deal with problems in general, keep a calm voice, etc. Problems will occur when the new leader intercedes in a problem that they judge to be beyond their own personal system of morals. A person could then be outraged or reduced to vomiting instead of acting in such a manner as to follow the guidelines of leadership but they should persist with an orderly plan.

 

In this case the question remains whether the leader should have sent the Scout home. If it would have been me, then I would have called the parents at that time and had them come and get the boy. If the parents were not at home, I would call our group contact person and had them call until they reached his parents. They would have been involved from the first minute that I could reach them until the committee made their decision as to what to do.

 

Once the committee made their decision, then I would abide by their decision. People that are further from the incident sometimes can have better insight and judgment than those first on the scene. It is the leader's responsibility to gather information and regroup everyone to order. fb

 

[SSScout]

Hello? National? Hello. I participate in the "Scouter Forum" ? And I was... No. It's an on line discussion of Scout Stuff. Uh-huh. I was wondering if you all were listening to any of the discussions we have here? Uh-huh. Well,we had one really good one about a Cub Scout pulling out a pocket knife and threatening another Cub with it. Oh, we know about the G2SS and the various NLT and Child Protection stuff. That's right. Yes.

Well I'd like to ask if the Wood Badge 21st courses might include some role playing for stuff like the Cub with a Knife scenerio. Oh, you haven't read that one? Call which committee? Uh-huh. uh-huh. Okay, but you see, in my work, we have to play "What if " games all the time. We are encouraged to think about how we might respond to various problems, not just read about them in a "Guide" . Okay. Good. But can you tell me who I might contact... Yes, I've read that, that's not...No not there. ... Well, I am planning on... No, not til next April...so I can't suggest... But you see it DOES come up ... and happen...but wouldn't it be better to think about a proper response before...Uh-huh...Okay... Yes, I will suggest it to my Wood Badge Scoutmaster.. Okay. No. Thank.. Thank you, You have a nice day.

[Fuzzy Bear]

SSS,

 

We covered a good deal of material in this life situation over 7 days. I am unsure how long it would take for the same role play in real time. Since you do this at your work, I am interested in how it is done, time limits, types of question, ground rules, etc. To do this well, people need to know background regulations and it helps to have experience, although it would be interesting to see how a new person reasons. I could see mixed groups of four playing it and then comparing the results afterwards. Points could be given knowing the rules and for innovation or possibly reasoning skills. I feel this one is going to a few Roundtables, so we might as well get some input on how best to develop it. It will find its' way to WB but only by way of the ground up. People at the top have their own goose to roast. I can't believe we have by-passed this one after all of the time most of us have spent doing this exercise right here. fb

 

[Its Me]

As much as we like to talk bravado reality often gets in the way.

 

Six men and one woman all trained for their rank, even four Baloo's and one woodbadge decided on this response. The boy in question is not from a strong scouting family. He is more likely to quit than to face harsh treatment. His parents voiced concerns that he was being picked on by his own pack.

 

If we had brought this boy up to the middle of our Pack (~100+ boys) we may have brought attention to our cause but at what cost to the individual? The group of leaders with all the facts before them agreed that this was the best avenue for the boy and the pack.

 

 

PS

This boy was not at the pack meeting tonight for our semi-annual Rocket Derby.

 

 

[Lisabob]

It's Me I think you did a good job of finding a balance. While I understand where others are coming from with regard to public punishment, it is important to keep in mind as well that this is a 10 or 11 year old boy we're talking about. For most kids that age, just the thought of getting up to do anything in front of 100 people would be scary enough, let alone, to have them witness your punishment. I hope this boy learned a serious lesson from his experience but I also hope he isn't made an example of for the rest of his time in scouting. Everybody deserves the chance to grow from their mistakes.

[Beavah]

I hope this boy learned a serious lesson from his experience but I also hope he isn't made an example of for the rest of his time in scouting. Everybody deserves the chance to grow from their mistakes.

 

Seen a lot of troops try different things over the years.

 

I have to agree with evmori. Havin' a public component of apology/penance that other boys witness is adviseable, even necessary, for exactly da reason Lisa'bob describes. If you don't have a public component, that everybody sees, then the boy's actions really will be held against him by other boys, and other parents, for the rest of his time in scouting.

 

Public actions reassure everyone. They allow the boy to show understanding and remorse, and then be forgiven and welcomed back. They allow those who were injured/scared by the boy's actions to see consequences, and be assured that their welfare is being taken care of. That allows them to forgive and move on - they see the boy has "done his time."

 

Yes, owning up to and admitting his mistakes in public is difficult, but with firm and caring adults it is a necessary trauma that teaches good lessons. We all need to admit and own up to our mistakes with our friends and family. It is much more kind to the boy than keeping things private, because it allows the incident to be resolved in everyone's mind. It keeps the boy as "family."

 

[SSScout]

To be more specific: We do play "What if" here. I work for a transit agency, lots of public contact. Figuring out what to do if THIS or THAT should happen, BEFORE it happens, is always a good thing. Encouraging children, especially Scouts, in Conflict Resolution skills is also ALWAYS a good thing.

 

Collecting all the "what ifs" and developing a training session so them that have done it can impart some of their experience on them what ain't yet done it I think is a VERY good thing. That's what the trainers at my agency like to do, occasionally.

Since I have not yet been to WB (scheduling for next April), I hope that some of our training will include such "what ifs" as The Cub with the Pocket Knife, The Scout with the Foul Mouth, The Patrol with the Needy Scout (pick the type of "Needy"), The Patrol that Puts a Scout In His Place (Bullying) etc.

 

For conflict resolution, lots of material on the web.

Start with

Alternatives to Violence Project, www.avpusa.org All volunteer, AVP does training in prisons and community groups . Schools and churches can arrange discussions and training in their area.

 

Childrens Creative Response to Conflict, www.ccrc.org This group was totally volunteer but has since become a professional organization and I think slightly changed their name.

 

YiS KisMif