A kid pulling a knife on other kids

[Its Me]

The story as I learned it.

 

This weekend we camped at the local council cubworld. The site is 70 acres with about 20 acres left cleared for camping fields. At the edge of the wood line is a tree that in conducive to low climbing and has been labeled as the tree house. Boys gather there from various packs and play nice for the most part. But during this incident an air potato war broke out. An air potato is an invasive plant with a seed pod having the look, weight and size of a small to medium potato.

 

A dad with one of my Webelos II boys in tow comes up to me and says very politely, that this boy brandished an open knife in a threatening way on other boys around the tree house.

 

The boy says that the kids were throwing air potatoes at him. I take the boys knife and give the boy a lecture on how he should have never pulled the knife and that he should have removed himself from the situation when things got bad.

 

I related this story to the mom when she arrived and returned the knife to her. As they are a Buddhist family, any sort of violence is deplored. She was aghast!

 

I latter learned that this same boy pulled his knife on another kid the night before. The kid with the pocket knife had his hat taken by another boy in the pack. Seeing how upset the one boy was with losing his hat, four other boys joined in the chase to get the hat back. The boy with the hat was caught and as he was pinned by four other scouts the hat was released. However, as the one boy was pinned the pocket knife boy opened his knife a dangled it over the pinned boy's back and said some threatening things.

 

The mother of the pocket knife boy has written asking that I and the other leaders do a better job of control the bullying. I agree and will work with our pack leaders to denounce bullying.

 

But, how do I handle and address the issue of the knife pulling? Do I just ask that this boys whittling card be revoked?. Do I suggest that this boy may want to consider if he truly wants to be a scout?

 

 

 

 

 

[SSScout]

If I were the CM, (useta be) I would take the Cub and his parents aside, privately, and speak about the importance about:

1) following thru with promises (keeping your word). You might even use the topic as a CM Minute...(not to mention any names, of course).

2)If he "earned" it,discuss the Whitlin' Chip card the Whitlin' Chip requirements, and did he think he had been true to those requirements? The 'pulling' of the card and it's privilege is an appropriate result of his actions, yes? Do the parents agree in this? I would hope they would. He can 'earn' it again at a latter date.

3) Let him know you understand his frustration in the actions of his fellow Cubs (speak to them seperately). Did he somehow feel threatened? Is there any history of "bullying" in the Pack? Maybe the other Cubs were expressing their affection of him in an immature way. The Cubs that went out of their way to help retrieve the hat certainly were supportive. Maybe the 'potatoe' throwers and the hat grabber were "trying" him, how would he react? If they get the 'rise' out of him they sought, they might be emboldened to do it again. Ask him how he might react in a different way? to get a different result?

4) Yeah, kids tease and try each other. Every elementary school class has a "pecking order" and cliques and gangs will develope But you must make it plain that THESE are not ordinary kids, but Cub Scouts and more is expected of them. Sure, they will make mistakes and they will experiment (that's what being human is about), but the way they treat each other is what we're dealing with here and what we, as parents and Scout leaders expect of them.

5) Is it possible to help the 'bullies' also realize the real results of their actions? Are there more esoteric reasons behind their actions?

((boy, bet you never thought you'd get into stuff like this when you stuck that blue spot on your left sleeve))

 

Okay, that's enough to think about. I hope I've not confused you too much with my observations.

In the mean time,

 

KISMIF

 

YiS

 

 

[Jeffrey H]

The wonderful world of boys!

 

This kid appears to have a pattern of pulling a knife and here are my suggestions:

 

1)      His Whittlin Chip card is taken away for at least six months.  He has clearly violated the whittlin chip promise.    

2)      Suspend him from at least 4 den meetings.  If hes serious about being a good Scout, hell be back.  Keep in touch with him while he is away and let him and the parents know that you care about him. 

3)      Reinforce the Core Values of Cub Scouting with your Den or Pack concerning the bullying.  If you are not doing it already, integrate the teaching of Core Values as a part of the overall Pack and Den programs.  The boys dont have to memorize them, but they should have awareness that being a Cub Scout is a little more than just wearing the uniform.

4)      Reward good behavior alongside the punishment phase.  Encourage him to do better and that he is capable of making better choices.

 

If the boy is unresponsive to the above, then I would recommend his removal from the Pack and barred from all future Pack activities and outings.

 

 

[nldscout]

Shoot, Nip this in the bud early.

 

Have the little munchkin arrested and thrown in jail for a day

[msnowman]

Pulling his Whittling Chip is an obvious definate. He was not handling his knife in a safe manner. You don't say how old the boy is, so I'm guessing he is a Bear or Web I....old enough to know that what he did is wrong and why and in how many ways it is wrong.

 

I disagree with the suggestion to suspend him from Den meetings for any period of time. Chances are he won't be back. IMHO that ranks up there w/ a parent threatening "you can't go to Scouts if you don't do XYZ". However, requiring him to have a parent/guardian stay with him at den meetings and accompany him on pack outings for "X" period of time would be reasonable.

 

The bullying needs to be dealt with as well. No, pulling a knife is never the right answer, but the bullies also can't be excused for their part in the incidents. 2 wrongs don't make a right and all that. And no, this isn't just "boys will be boys". Its too easy to write off things the boys do off with that line, instead of making them take responsibility for their actions.

 

Good luck

 

YiS

Michelle

 

[eagle-pete]

I fully agree with and would recommend the same steps outlined by Jeffrey H.

 

No offense, nldscout, but although I understand the point you are trying to make, I am not sure jail is a good solution at this point.

 

When I was a Cub Master, whenever there was a child with difficulties or even serious issues to be handled in the pack, my first and foremost responsibility was the safety of the boys in the pack. This is a serious safety issue, as you probably realize. Drastic measures need to be taken in a situation where the safety of the boys is in jeopardy. I believe the steps listed by Jeffrey H addresses the seriousness of the offense adequately.

 

Eagle Pete

[ScoutNut]

You said this family is Buddhist & opposed to any kind of violence. The boy is in 5th grade, has there ever been any other incidents, of any kind, with this boy?

 

If there has never been any other problems, & with the family history of non-violence, I would say that there is a strong chance there is something else going on with this boy that is causing him to act out in a fashion that he KNOWS will attract the immediate, & shocked, attention of his family.

 

Request an immediate meeting with the boy & his family. Have them bring the knife & the Whittlin' Chip card. Impound both. Talk to them & see if they have any idea why he acted in this manner. Let the parents know that the problems of bullying, conflict resolution & scout-like behavior will be addressed at both a den & Pack level ASAP. Remind the parents that they are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their son & that one of them will be expected to attend future outings with him.

 

Hopefully this will resolve whatever problems this boy is having. I would not ban him from den meetings. As a 5th grade Webelos, if he stays away from meetings for a month, especially at this time of the year, there is a good probability he will never come back, as a Cub or Scout. You want to help this boy & encourage him to be a good scout, not loose him completely. As for the knife & card, I would make sure he (& the whole den) went over knife safety a couple of times in the next few months. Then, at crossover, I would return them to him for his future, safe, use as a Boy Scout.

[PeteM]

You can also check out the following thread:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=137149&p=1

 

It happend in the troop my son goes to over the summer of 2006.

 

Pete

[Beavah]

I'm goin' to (not so) gently suggest that a 5th grader who threatens other boys with a knife multiple times, with an expressed verbal threat to do harm to a defenseless boy, needs a big enough consequence to really get his attention. The world needs to come crashing down on his head. For this boy's sake, and other boys' sakes, the response has to be so awful that he never even thinks of ever doing something like that again.

 

This is assault with a weapon people! He's a 5th grader, not a Tiger Cub. If you don't treat this as gravely serious and something else happens, oi!! Liability is the least of it; my personal opinion would be that you as an adult leader should be jailed.

 

He loses the knife. He is sent home immediately. He loses the ability to ever carry a knife again. He is suspended for several months and until written letters of apology and some serious "penance" in the form of hard work and service. And his nonviolent parents better meet out their own discipline.

 

If you've got a bully thing goin' on, yeh need to get control of that, too. Not by "shucks, o, gee, we should talk to the kids about that." Identify the bully. Call the parents. Send the bully home. Only to return following an apology, and then on probation.

 

Second serious offense for either boy means gone for good and ever.

 

Done firmly with character and courage, you will neither lose this boy or the other boys whose parents won't want them anywhere near a kid with a knife who gets mollycoddled by you, or a bully who you ignore. But even if you do lose him to Scouting, THAT'S OK if in the course of that experience he learns that threatening other people with weapons is something never to do again.

 

[packsaddle]

I think I agree with Beavah on this. I hope the parents take whatever action is necessary to understand what are the underlying causes of this behavior. Been there, done that.

[Lisabob]

Here are my thoughts as a former cub leader.

 

1) you started out your first post with "The story as I heard it." Are you 100% certain you heard what really happened?

 

2) Certainly take this boy's knife away. If/when he gets it back? I'd be inclined to say he doesn't, not while he is in cubs at least. Maybe if he continues on to a troop he'll be mature enough to earn his totin' chip. That's for the troop leaders to determine.

 

3) Punishment? The boy doesn't attend your next campout, certainly. He has shown he doesn't have the maturity for that. He also ought to be expected to write a letter of apology to any boys he pulled a knife on. No matter what the provocation, threatening with a knife is never, ever, the appropriate response and requires (at minimum) an apology.

 

I'd continue to allow him to attend den meetings and pack meetings, with a parent/adult relative present.

 

And I agree w/ Beavah that if it happened again (though it shouldn't, if you've taken his knife!) that he would be asked to leave the pack. You've had one rather serious knife incident with this boy already and a second such incident would be it for me, no matter what. Make sure the boy, the parent, and the CM are aware of this. Make extra sure the CM will back you, first. (and if not, tell the CM that s/he can be the den leader for this den too...)

 

4) About bullying. This is such an issue. You need to address it in your den and pack with more than words. Kids get "bully-proofing" talks all the time at school and in my observation, it is almost always "words" with little back-up. They get talked at once or twice a semester by some authority figure and that's the end of it. Most of the kids I know don't put much stock in such empty policies. Don't put yourself in that category, in your eyes. If you can do something where they are actively involved (role play, some kind of physical involvement) then they'll likely take it more seriously. And make sure you communicate to ALL of the parents what you are doing, preferably ahead of time. They need to see that you are responding in an active manner to the concerns and they need to understand that their little darling might need to go home if he engages in bullying at a cub event. If parents are aware of how you are handling the problem and you have their backing, it will make your job easier.

 

Not coincidentally - we are dealing with bullying issues in my son's troop these days too. My thoughts are that if you can make it clear that bullying has no place in scouting at the cub level, it will only help when boys get into a troop, where there is a lot less adult supervision. Conversely, boys who feel they can get away with it in cubs are probably going to be that much more problematic in a troop setting.

 

Good luck, tough stuff to deal with here.

 

Lisa'bob

[nldscout]

While some may have thought my comment was harsh, as a judge I see teenages come before me that have commited crimes, that started off with things such as this and all everyone did was down play the incidents, one after another. Next thing it was on to bigger and better types of crimes.

 

You need to be proactive, firm, and nip this problem right now before it escalates.

 

Paul

[Its Me]

 

 

I have learned a few more things. The mom has written me and relayed a story that while 12 feet up in the tree her boy had no alternative but to pull his knife as the kids were throwing the potatoes as if pitching from a baseball mound. The boy feared that he would fall and break a limb. The story was told that the boy was in a completely desperate situation, "that the brandishing of his knife was not at all casually or hastily done. It was done wrongly but reluctantly".

 

I will add that when brought to me that the boy did not appear to be disheveled or have any bruises or marks that would have indicated a close contact scuffle. The man who brought him to me did not indicate that the kid was getting pummeled or that there was a fight. The boy did not point out marks or bruises where the fast pitched potatoes hit him.

 

From the mom's telling I believe she thought it was his own pack picking on him.

 

From another boy's account the boy with the knife was two feet off the ground on a fallen log. That he was called a red head and throws were directed at him. That the throws "weren't rockets". And that our pack boys were not throwing potatoes at him but the other pack.

 

From all accounts the adult leader walked up and took the boy by the arm and led him away. If that's true then he wasn't up in a tree. I will add that after seeing a weekend of camp activities that included a throwing game, that 7-10 year old cub scout aren't going to have bazooka arms.

 

Also the Saturday night incident where the pinned boy had a knife held over him was only witnessed by my 13 year old daughter. The hat, chase and pinning were all remembered and all parties agreed on how and who was involved. But either by position or miss identification only my 13 year old daughter saw the knife. My six year thinks see saw it too but that's not as reliable.

 

 

The pack leaders are meeting this Sunday and we will discuss this issue.

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>The pack leaders are meeting this Sunday and we will discuss this issue.

[evmori]

I'm with Beavah on this. This boy needs something that will get his attention! If that doesn't happen & he moves into a Troop, things could get a whole lot worse when he learns how to use an ax!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10