BB Gun belt loop - what would you do?

[JeffD]

Our cubs participated in a district camp this past week. The events (as explained to all) were inclusive of bb gun shooting and archery. THey were supervised by a cerified director and a safety course was given (very brief) before they were allowed to shoot. Each scout was given 5 shots at a target.

 

The way it was explained to me was that all scouts participating in this would get to earn the bb gun shooting belt loop. When i looked at the belt loop requirements (and also knowing this loop can ONLY be earned at campouts like this) i know we didnt cover the requirements as described below. First, the boys werent even given the opportunity to fire 15 shots as stated, as well as adjusting the gun sight. Pack leaders seem to be fine with it as the kids 'did their best' -- what would you do?

 

Requirements for the BB Gun Shooting Belt Loop

 

The BB gun loop, pin and letter can be awarded only by a certified Cub Scout BB gun shooting director at a BSA approved camp. The safety and shooting participation belt loop (BB shooting) can only be awarded with approval of the camp BB-gun shooting-sports director to Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts who meet the following qualifications:

 

- Complete camp basic BB-gun marksmanship safety course.

 

Complete the following shooting requirements:

 

- Fire five groups of shots (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter, and then adjust the BB gun sight.

 

- Fire a pro-marksman score of five bull's-eyes-TQ-40-in five shots each, achieving a minimum score of eight per shot.

 

[eghiglie]

The rules in the 2003 printing of the Shooting Sports for Cubs state:

 

1) Explain the rules for safe shooting you have learned to your leader.

2) Demonstrate to your leader good shooting techniques, shoulder shooting, eye dominance, breathing, sighting, trigger squeeze and follow through.

3) Practice shooting for the time allowed at district or council camp.

 

Based on the latest rules they earned it.

 

Having gone through rangemaster training to run shooting sports at CS Day Camps I'm familiar with the requirements and the work required. At a week long day camp it is possible to teach the items to fully earn the loop/pin but for a short session in one day its tough enough to get them to learn all the safety techniques. Usually at Day Camp they can shoot multiple times in the week and work towards the pin.

 

The main goal of BSA shooting sports is the safety training about firearms and archery equipment. So long as the safety is understood that is 95% of challenge with young kids.

 

Last week my son and I went to a Fun with Sun and there were 350 cubs there. There were only six 45-minute sessions to shoot and only 15 kids at a time could shoot. So most kids could only shoot 5 or 6 BB's and 4 arrows. Many of the younger kids needed help to cock the gun.

 

However at Day Camp a den of 12 get one hour to shot at 8 stations so they can log plenty of time there and perfect the techniques to earn the pin.

 

Also the equipment at many camps is well used and worn and most don't shoot straight anyway, so trying to teach aiming techniques is tough in 10 or 15 minutes.

 

That said about the belt loop though is one thing, if the boy really wants to earn the pin that will be extra work. My son and I are lucky as we belong to a shooting club and can practice firearms and archery on our own. Unlike when I was growing up there are very few chances for a kid to shoot these days and that 40 minutes at the district might be all they get for a year.

 

 

[SSScout]

Greetings JeffD:

I think you may be confusing the PIN requirements with something else. Check out www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/sports/BBgun.html

You'll see, I think ,that your Cubs did pass the bare requirements, which for Belt Loops are never too onerous:

 

1) Explain safety rules...

2)Demonstrate good BBshooting technique...

3)Practice shooting (at your Scout Camp) in the time allowed...

 

Nowhere does the Belt Loop have an absolute accuracy requirement.

 

KISMIF

 

YiS

[ScoutNut]

Jeff - You are looking at the OLD requirements for earning the PIN.

 

Using the current (updated in 2003) requirements the boys have indeed earned the BELT LOOP.

 

 

[JeffD]

THANKS!!!!

 

ode to the internet.... loads of info.. not all correct

[scottteng]

"The BB shooting loop and pin can be awarded only by a certified Cub Scout BB gun shooting director at a BSA approved camp". The cub scout shooting sports director should give the boys a certificate or the actual belt loop if it is deemed to be awarded. We can always get in the requisite safety information in a week long day camp but in a family camp one day setting often just let the boys shoot rather than being overly concerned with the belt loops to be awarded. BSA has very specific things they want the boys to learn at cub level. It is all age appropriate building blocks from bb guns through rifle and shotgun merit badge and beyond.

[Oak Tree]

We had this exact situation happen in 2002, under the old requirements. What can you do? In that case it would have been fairly difficult to overrule the instructor - so we let the awards stand. With most other awards it's easy enough to ask the boys to actually complete the requirements, but not with archery and BB guns, since they can't do them on their own. I'd go with the camp's statement.

 

After that event, I was glad to see that National changed the requirements in 2003, almost seemingly in response to our experience (or maybe it was the experience of thousands like us).

 

This, the bending of requirements, is still a common situation, where the council tries to award things without actually ensuring they are completed. Boy Scout camp can be a terrible example of this. You just need to use your judgement in each situation on the best way to handle it.

 

Oak Tree

[theysawyoucomin']

I watched this same occurance at cub scout camp.

 

The folks at camp acted like they had no idea what was happening with the belt loop. As if this was just a familiarization firing.

 

 

In the police state of NY It is against the law for anyone under 11 to fire an air gun. So technically a cub scout can never earn the belt loop.

 

Doesn't matter in a few days Spitzer will be Gov. and the rounding up and registration will begin.

 

If only the ACLU knew that there was a second ammendment.

 

 

"why is it when somebody sticks up a bank the politicians want to take all the guns away from the people that didn't do it?"

 

[nldscout]

There is no law in the State of NY that prohibits a cub scout using a BB gun at a scout camp. You are mistaken

[eghiglie]

The BB Guns often used by cubs are not quite the same as pnuematic air rifle but are use a spring air mechanism to fire the BB. I'm referring to the Daisy Red Ryder and Buck models. Most other low cost models use the same mechanism. This limits the effective range of the BB.

 

The guide to safe scouting also states that cubs cannot shoot air rifle, just bb guns with the spring air mechanism. Cubs cannot shoot any rifle that can fire a pellet either. The difference in power is noticiable. The BB guns used by cubs have an effective range that is much less than a Crossman 760 or 780 pump air rifle.

 

The BB shot from a Daisy Buck will lose effectiveness at 35 to 45 ft or so and drop off. The same BB fired from a Crossman 760 pumped 6 times will pierce through 1/4 plywood at 40 feet. When I tried a pellet in the 760 it was able to go through the wood at 60 feet.

 

Be aware though than even a buck or red ryder can still cause serious injury or possibly death if fired just the right way at close range. These are not toys, but are useful training tools for the boys to learn and have a better idea of what to expect when they move to .22's and shotguns at the Troop level.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, this is well outside my area, but it looks like the NY penal code section 265.20 (7-d) contains an exemption for kids under 12 using air rifles at an indoor or outdoor target range with qualified supervision.

 

Still, I gotta admit that the NYS gun laws are a bit of restrictive mess, eh?