4th Grade Webelos wants to cross with 5th grade bother

[Its Me]

 

I am a Webelos II leader.

 

I had a dad approach me about the idea of getting his fourth grade son to complete his arrow of light before our our Webelos II dencross over in April. This way he can have his 4th and 5th grade sons cross at the same time. The younger boy wil be ten years old in February. As far as I can tell as long as his Arrow of light is complete he can cross.

 

 

[ManassasEagle]

The current 4th grader is not going to be able to earn his Arrow Of Light until too late. If you look at the first AOL requirement "Be active in your Webelos den for at least 6 months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge." and he doesn't turn 10 until February, the earliest he could possibly earn his AOL would be next August, right?

 

[SWScouter]

Requirement 1 of the Arrow of Light is:

 

Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

 

Since he'll be turning 10 in February, it appears the earliest he can earn the AOL is August 2007.

 

SWScouter

[Lisabob]

Even if he were eligible, I'd counsel caution. We had this situation in our mixed webelos I/II den (mixed den was a matter of necessity, not choice, but younger brother would've been around anyway - Mom insisted on bringing him to everything the older brother was doing). The younger brother was/is EXTREMELY competitive with his older brother, and "mom" was pushing hard for a dual cross-over all the way to make her schedule easier. Personally I was really glad that he COULD NOT cross over together with his older brother. They both benefitted from doing their own program without having the other there for a year. Some parents do not seem to understand that the program is set up as is for a reason. So just because it might be more convenient for them to have both boys move in tandem doesn't mean it is a good idea, program-wise or for their personal development.

 

Lisa'bob

[Its Me]

 

I don't disagree that it would be better from a development stand point and an individualist stand point to have the brothers reach Boy Scouts on their own schedule. But I can understand this from the father's view; with the pack meetings on different nights, at different locations and even different charterre there will be few common occurances. Plus the Webelos I den has only one other kid in it and the leader isn't doing much to begin with.

 

Comparing moving up against an "ideal" webelos-I den and a perfect pack/troop relationship I would push hard for the boy to not go with his older brother. But that is not what we have. The dad travels a lot and as with most kids today both boys are in several activities. I would hate to force him to pick one boy to stay in scouting, have the older one wait a year or worse just say to both forget it.

 

So the younger one can cross after his arrow of light and six months after he turns ten. Unless there are several others crossing in August he will miss the new scout patrol and summer camp.

 

 

 

 

[CubsRgr8]

from the father's view; with the pack meetings on different nights

How about if Dad hangs out with the younger son one year and lets the older one go to troop meetings without him? Dad can always go on campouts.

the Webelos I den has only one other kid in it and the leader isn't doing much

How about Dad stepping up and becoming the Webelos leader?

The dad travels a lot

What, whoever is taking care of the kids while he's gone can't be bothered to take the kids to scouts?!?

 

Please excuse the rant, but do you see how this Dad comes across in your post? I mean, it seems like it's Dad pushing for this to make his life convenient, not about what's best for both boys. Sheesh! End rant.

 

 

 

[eghiglie]

The requirements are what they are and the biggest one to meet is the 6th months after 4th grade to get the AOL.

 

My 2

 

Let the boys cross-over seperate when they are supposed to. The period of time that it will be an impact on the family is less than a year anyway. The things the boy will learn as a 5th grader are different than what he would get out of it as a 4th grader.

 

Also, he has some bond with the Den he is in.

 

 

 

[mtm25653]

My youngest (of 3 scouts) got his AOL in August (just after starting 5th grade, at 10 1/2) and crossed over to Boy Scouts in Sept. It worked for us, but it was HIS choice. He was motivated to work on his Webelos stuff, and then to quickly advance in the troop, so that he could go on a troop trip to Canada the summer after 5th grade.

 

Fact - you can't cross the boy into the troop with his brother (he's not old enough)

Suggestion - encourage him to advance quickly, and let him move up to the troop after getting his AOL. He may make it at the earliest possible time (when he's 10 1/2) and if so, there's no reason to hold him back in Cub Scouts, IF he's excited about being a boy scout.

 

My son had his AOL ceremony at one pack meeting (an abbreviated form of the typical ceremony, which in our pack is usually done at the same time as the crossover) and then got to wear his AOL badge for a month on hic cub uniform (which most of our boys don't) before crossing over (again, an abbreviated ceremony, but with a real bridge) at the next Pack meeting. (I stayed in cub scouts and continued as the Web II den leader until the rest of the den crossed over in Feb.)

 

Because he was motivated, missing the first summer camp and a new scout patrol didn't matter (like I said, he was the 3rd scout in the family and was very comfortable with older kids.) FYI, neither of my other boys were in a New Scout Patrol either - 1 was the only boy to join the troop, and with the other, I think there were 4 boys, and 1 or 2 went into each of the existing 3 patrols. The older boys in the patrol taught them the new scout skills. This past year, the troop only got 2 boys (pack feeds into 2 troops), and each one went into a separate patrol - no problems.

 

Our troop does have a rule (broken for only 1 set of brothers in the 14 years I've been in the troop) that brothers are not in the same patrol. That cuts down on the competition and brotherly rowdiness, and let's each boy work with a group of friends.

[CaveEagle]

I would not give the dad a "pass" because of the traveling issue. I have heard this excuse before and don't buy it.

 

I have had a heavy traveling work schedule for the last 5 years. I spend an average of 85 nights / year out of town. (many more day trips)

 

I have always have always been one of the more acitve adults in our units. It comes down to priorities. If it is important enough, you will find the time.

 

Let the older brother have his cross-over. It will be good for both brothers to have a little space.

 

CE

[Beavah]

He may make it at the earliest possible time (when he's 10 1/2) and if so, there's no reason to hold him back in Cub Scouts, IF he's excited about being a boy scout.

 

Yah, maybe it's because I'm a northerner, but I beg to differ. Most troops around here would be highly skeptical of a September 5th grader crossover, and at least some just wouldn't accept him.

 

There are good reasons to keep him in the age-appropriate program where he belongs, eh? An active youth-run Boy Scout troop looks really excitin' and attractive to a 10-year-old, for sure, in the same way that shotgun shootin' with a 12-gauge looks excitin' and attractive. Until he pulls the trigger, and it really hurts.

 

A youth-run troop program is naturally goin' to be settin' up a program of activities that's age-appropriate for 13 to 14-year-olds, and quite a physical/mental/emotional challenge for 11 to 12 year-olds. A ten year old may be in way over his head, and with no same-age peers and classmates in the troop, may not have any of the social peer "support structure" he needs to do well. Bein' the annoying little kid / younger brother in a youth-run program is not the way to be successful.

 

For those of us in northern climes, a September or October crossover means a new scout is thrust immediately into cold- and foul-weather camping with no preparation. That's a recipe for misery if not safety problems. And, too, the troop's fall program is going to expect all boys to have Tenderfoot or better skills by then, that this one boy won't have.

 

One of the reasons for boys droppin' out of troops is not bein' physically and emotionally ready for Boy Scouting as 11-year-olds. Why would yeh choose to take that risk with a 10 year old? Just because dad can't drive two places? Sheesh. Get da boy into a pack carpool, eh? But don't push him into Boy Scoutin' early. It's a mean thing to do to a kid.

 

 

 

 

 

[mtm25653]

"For those of us in northern climes, a September or October crossover means a new scout is thrust immediately into cold- and foul-weather camping with no preparation."

 

We are in the South (NC), but my second son's 1st BS campout was in March, with snow. The Leaders are prepared (had extra sleeping bags, hats, etc.) for any boys (not just the youngest) who don't bring adequate clothing. Also, it's not unusual for our Webelos to camp with the troop in December or March, maybe when it's not as cold as some places in the north, but they get some cold weather experience (and most places don't have snow yet in October).

 

Our troop is a high adventure troop. Both my younger boys have been rock-climbing at 10 1/2 years. The troop also goes skiing every January, and stays in a large (20x30) army tent.

The parents/boys always have the option of not going on a trip if they feel the weather is too bad or the trip is too strenuous, but the troop goes on the trip, on matter the weather. They have sometimes modified a trip - camping in a barn instead of tents when it's snowing.) The boys, even the youngest, love the adventure of roughing it in tough conditions.

 

"A youth-run troop program is naturally goin' to be settin' up a program of activities that's age-appropriate for 13 to 14-year-olds, "

 

Maybe, if they don't get guidance from the adults that the boys in the troop are at different levels. How about backpacking where the older (or stronger boys) hike 20 miles, and the younger boys and those with some physical challenges (like the scout we had with cerebral palsy, or the one we have now with congential muscle weakness) hike 5 miles, but they both get to the peak. Rock climbing can also be at multiple levels on the same trip.

 

And if the level is at 13-14 yo, where does that leave the older, high school boys. In my troop, they are still active, so there are trips to Philmont, Northern Tier, and 200 miles on the Appalachian Trail (like my 15 and turned-18-on-the-trip sons did this summer).

[mtm25653]

"For those of us in northern climes, a September or October crossover means a new scout is thrust immediately into cold- and foul-weather camping with no preparation."

 

We are in the South (NC), but my second son's 1st BS campout was in March, with snow. The Leaders are prepared (had extra sleeping bags, hats, etc.) for any boys (not just the youngest) who don't bring adequate clothing. Also, it's not unusual for our Webelos to camp with the troop in December or March, maybe when it's not as cold as some places in the north, but they get some cold weather experience (and most places don't have snow yet in October).

 

Our troop is a high adventure troop. Both my younger boys have been rock-climbing at 10 1/2 years. The troop also goes skiing every January, and stays in a large (20x30) army tent.

The parents/boys always have the option of not going on a trip if they feel the weather is too bad or the trip is too strenuous, but the troop goes on the trip, on matter the weather. They have sometimes modified a trip - camping in a barn instead of tents when it's snowing.) The boys, even the youngest, love the adventure of roughing it in tough conditions.

 

"A youth-run troop program is naturally goin' to be settin' up a program of activities that's age-appropriate for 13 to 14-year-olds, "

 

Maybe, if they don't get guidance from the adults that the boys in the troop are at different levels. How about backpacking where the older (or stronger boys) hike 20 miles, and the younger boys and those with some physical challenges (like the scout we had with cerebral palsy, or the one we have now with congential muscle weakness) hike 5 miles, but they both get to the peak. Rock climbing can also be at multiple levels on the same trip.

 

And if the level is at 13-14 yo, where does that leave the older, high school boys. In my troop, they are still active, so there are trips to Philmont, Northern Tier, and 200 miles on the Appalachian Trail (like my 15 and turned-18-on-the-trip sons did this summer).

[greenSM]

This issue is not about camping in the cold, it's about FOLLOWING THE RULES!

 

Why are so many scouters so intent on bending and distorting not only the rules but the entire program?

[Eagledad]

>>One of the reasons for boys droppin' out of troops is not bein' physically and emotionally ready for Boy Scouting as 11-year-olds. Why would yeh choose to take that risk with a 10 year old?

[EagleInKY]

Gee, what is it with Web parents these days. Some want to go early, others want to stay around pass their age limits.

 

We had this issue this past summer. A 4th grade brother wanted to cross over with his 5th grade brother. He had completed the necessary work for his AOL, but didn't have the age requirement yet. He visited our troop from a pack we're not afiliated with. They asked me if he could join, and I told them that if he had earned the AOL and was the minimum age to join Scouts, he could. (I wasn't aware of the full story). The parents didn't realize that he hadn't really earned the AOL yet. They show up wanting to sign him up and send him on a canoe trip with his brother. I looked up the rules and explained to them the issue. They weren't happy with me. The older brother came on up, but the younger one hasn't expressed interest in crossing over since. (He's now old enough).

 

Bottom line is he CAN cross over August, once he's reached the age requirement. You have to find a troop willing to do this. Until then, he should get the most out of Cub Scouts that he can. If there's a troop that is open to the idea of letting him cross over in August, then go ahead and build a relationship there. Maybe he can come on a couple of campouts as a Webelos recruit. It's up to the troop to accept this, however. I don't believe the parents can force them.