How can the BSA get all members on the same page?

[dan]

Or should I say at least the same book?

The last couple of days there has been some discussion on what is and is not policy/allowed/correct.

 

After much discussion "we" can not come to an agreement on what is correct.

(By "we" I mean fellow scouters on this board, who I firmly believe are here to learn and help others learn to make their units and other unit better)

 

So my question to you all is:

How could the BSA get all of the members at least using the same book with the same understanding?

Or should they?

 

I will even start with a suggestion that on the BSA site www.scouting.org have a email address to send questions.

 

[ScoutParent]

There will never be 100% agreement on policies as long as there are people from different areas and backgrounds coming together with their own interpretations of these policies. Every time a legislative body of our governments make a new ordinance, law or statute, they try to eliminate the gray areas and still you have lawyers arguing cases based on their interpetations of these ordinances, laws and statutes. It's part of being members of a free society and thinking independently. The great thing is we have a forum to discuss our opinions and hopefully we can use it to come to fuller understandings by exchanging our ideas and to the betterment of scouting.

[Bob White]

I agree, you will never get everyone to read off the same page. Not becaause the same page doesn't exist, but because there will always be people who don't believe what they read or choose not to read. There are still people who refuse to accept that "death camps" existed during WWII, or that man actually landed on the moon. If they cannot be convinced with the overwhelming evidence that exists, then how can we hope to convince everyone of the methods of scouting. Our best hope is in the numbers we train. Hopefully the more leaders we reach the more leaders we will have that will follow the program.

 

Bob White

[sctmom]

Even agreeing on what is policy there is always interpretation and unique situations. Being trained is very important. Staying trained is important. There is no way BSA or anyone else can cover every possible situation in detail and tell us exactly what to do.

 

We are lucky to have boards like this one so we can hear different interpretations and hopefully be open enough to give thought to what others are saying.

 

The policies tell keep us in line, but we still have to use common sense, our brains and even the input of others to be successful.Each troop is unique. Each scout is unique. What worked a week ago may not work today. We have to be flexible within the policies.

 

Also, we will make mistakes. Hopefully we will learn from them and not repeat them.

 

[ScoutParent]

"I agree, you will never get everyone to read off the same page. Not becaause the same page doesn't exist, but because there will always be people who don't believe what they read or choose not to read."

 

How about different people read the same words and come to different understandings? I believe it is this attitude that makes people angry with you, Bob and not actually what you have to say. Why is it so hard to see that people with different backgrounds, educational levels and abilities volunteer in scouting and that to have open dialogue is the best way to come together on important issues. Deprecating attitudes and comments do not add to the dialogue. I would say it is why there are scholars in every avenue of life from law to theology, from architecture to botany, from cancer research to psychology--we can all learn from one another if we open our minds and hearts to differing opinions.

[dan]

Yes I agree also, but the question was how do get everyone on the same page.

And suggestions for improvements. As I stated in the original post I firmly believe we are all here trying to learn and share.

 

Training is not answer! The reason I say this is most posters on this board have been trained, if memory serves me correct. And we have different ideas on the policies.

 

I firmly believe the training I received for Scoutmaster Fundamentals was not the same as ALL others on this board. We have had some discussion on here and what other scouters said they learned from training I did not get what they did form the training. I believe that even in the same council, the training would be different by who does the training. I have to believe that the training from council to council is completely different.

 

To fix this the BSA need to come out with a complete training program that would not allow different trainers to add or subtract from the training program. It would be a huge task to write up each step of training, what would be said and done, but I believe this would also help the understanding of the program, if done correctly.

 

I have not seen the training program, but I have to believe that it is left pretty wide open for interpretation, from what I have seen.

 

[Bob White]

Scout Parent,

It's not that I think different interpretations don't exist. I just don't see it happening as often as I see leaders not get training or not accepting the information given in training.

 

Look at so many of the posts on this board. There are very few examples of people who really see a differnent meaning, the rules and methods are not that difficult to understand and they are not written in a way to mislead or cunfuse.

 

What we see are people who try to twist it to their vision and their methods of scouting. I fou used the methods of the BSA then the policies do not require deep thought to understand. Now I can hear some people getting to respond that I am one of those twisters. But I think if you go back and look at any of the controversies that we have had and look at the intent of the poster compared to the intent of the program and you will see two things.

1.There are posters who even after seeing scout methods such as youth electing leadership in print in multiple resources, turn their back on it saying things like "I don't like it so that is not what we do".

2. Whenever there is wide differences in policies it breaks into two groups, one some that always favors the self-governing of the scouts and some that want more "authority" or control by adults. Look at the purpose and methods of today's scouting and ask yourself which approach reflects the aims and methods of scouting.

 

I do not consider myself unique in scouting in any way. My stubborn dedication to the "current" program was a legacy left to me by the scouters who trained me. They got it from the scouters that trained them, and on and on. The training teams I have been part of have hopefully passed it on to others.

 

I think the majority of leaders do a great job. What concerns me are the leaders who do not get trained or who do not accept the scout methods who get on a public forum and say "here is what I do" to new leaders, who accept much of what they read on the Internet as truth. I believe that the responsible thing for leaders who understand and follow the program to do is to challenge those voices so that the new leaders take the training or read the manuals rather than innocently accept what is posted.

 

I welcome anyone to disagree with what I write as long as they investigate BSA resources to find the answer, and don't jerk their knee up and say, "I don't care, that's not what I do."

 

Bob White

[ScoutParent]

I respectfully disagree, Bob. Your interpretation of the unit finance policies and mine are different. Did I refuse to believe what I read or not read it? Certainly not, I just came to a different conclusion then you did. It says "It is important that the unit committee understands its responsiblity in guiding the finances of the unit. It promotes the proper use of the unit budget plan, both as a sound method of securing unit funds and also as a means of training boys in thrift, in paying their own way, and in the planning and wise administration of the unit funds" It also says "The unit committee is the custodian of all unit funds". Your interpretation is that the unit owns the money--period--final--that's it. My interpretation is that they are to take care of the money and distribute it fairly and wisely.

 

Your definition of discipline was one that differed from mine. In my opinion your definition more closely fit the definition of self control or self discipline than of discipline.

 

I applaud a deep committment to the ideals of scouting but then shouldn't we follow the basics of respect and courtesy when addressing one another? You have a wealth of knowledge and resources available to you; certainly of value to the rest of us. You have to give the new leaders some credit too and realize that they will have the ability to discern the difference between good advice and not so good advice.

 

Just like changes have already been made in the scouting program, changes will continue to be made. Someone with an opinion that differs from yours does not necessarily mean they are "twisting" the program. Maybe they are part of a force that will, in the future, affect a change.

 

Personally, I believe in a 100% boy led troop utilizing the patrol method. Does this always happen--a resounding no! Should we continue to strive towards the betterment of all our troops programs--definitely. How can we best do this--through mature and considerate behavior towards one another, through dialogue, through example, through citing scout resources. It is easy to get carried away with these topics and get angry, believe me I know that but alot of the problems occur because the terms are vague and oblique. How much easier it would be if specific "traditions" were addressed when changes in policy are made. Do I personally belive that it will harm most boys to sing a song in front of the group when they lose an item--no but obviously many people do and they changed the policy to try to exclude this so why not address it specifically. While it may not be possible to address every single issue, many of these "traditions" are widespread and well known and could easily be listed as unacceptable. Maybe a Scout dictionary is something to consider.

[Bob White]

ScoutParent,

I never gave my interpretation of quote you just gave. You asked me "When a scout transfers what happens to the individual scout account money? Does the BSA have regulations regarding this?" and I said "no they didn't". As you point out it says that the unit committee is the custodian of all funds. It says nothing about how to handle scout accounts.

 

I am unconcerned with would "might be in the future" as should you be. What counts is what the program and its rules are today. How can anyone possibly run a nationwide program if individuals try to do what they think will be the program in the future. There is only one scouting program, and it is today's program and it is determined by the BSA not by personal choice.

 

I agree that leaders can make their own choice as to which information to accept, but they need to hear the BSA side not just the "here is what I do" side that is so often represented here. I do not pretend to be a "spokesperson" for the BSA but I and a few other posters know what the BSA program is, and what it isn't.

 

There are over 200 councils most representing hundreds of units. There are thousands of "traditions" floating around out there. New ones begin all the time. Some are harmless. Some were allowed in their day but are not allowed today. It would be a monumental task to gather them all, and for what purpose. All you need to know is in the handbooks and in the training. Why learn a bunch of outdated practices?

 

If you aren't doing what the Boy Scout Handbook tells the boy he be doing in scouting then you are not doing a scouting program. If you don't use the methods of scouting, you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform your are not scouting.

 

We owe it to the scouts to deliver the promise made them in their handbook.

 

That promise is not one of punishments, adult rule, do what I say, go where I say go, don't advance if I don't think you are old enough, I'll choose the leaders because I know best, don't wear the uniform because I don't like the pants, your parent can't be a MB counselor because I said so, everybody works on the same merit badges at the same time, scouting that some have supported on this board.

 

As far as you son's situation, I have said over and over again that I disagree with what the unit has done, and I hope it resolves in the scout's favor. But it is not a scouting program problem, it is a local adult problem and needs to be solved locally by the adults involved.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ScoutParent]

"Keep in mind as I mentioned in my first post the Chater Org. has all the control of finances, if the committee and the Charter rep say no, then it's no."

"A national policy already exists. It says that money earned by the troop belongs to the troop"

"As you are aware the CO owns the unit and its assets. Your advice will only frustrate the family more without changing the outcome."

"The law says the money belongs to the chartering organization"

 

These are direct quotes from you, Bob. You mentioned the national policy.

 

I guess I wasn't clear on the idea that people that differ in opinion from you are not necessarily twisting the program. I'm not saying concentrate on what the program may be in the future, I'm saying that dissent from popularly held opinions can affect change. All change is not bad. Changes in policy that would clarify issues would be good. To include specific examples of "traditions" that would now be considered hazing would be a good thing. It would help make it more clear for all to understand.

 

A dictionary defining words like hazing would be a good thing. A National Policy guiding troop committees in specific ways of handling money would be a good thing. If it doesn't exist already then it's not necessary is not a good idea. I appreciate your support and your answers but I don't necessarily agree with all of them.

 

 

 

 

[ScoutParent]

How about a well planned survey given to scouts and parents addressing specific topics; filled out anonymously and returned to the local district where they can be tallied and areas needing more training or improvement can be targeted?

[Bob White]

ScoutParent,

I am disappointed that you would misquote me. In response to your intitial post."When a scout transfers what happens to the individual scout account money? Does the BSA have regulations regarding this?"

 

I answered "No, not really. There is a remote connection between unit funds and the BSA but it is really remote and only comes into play if the unit folds or if there illegalities in the handling of the money.

 

For all practical applications the stewardship of the funds are in the hands of the Troop Committee and the chartered organization."

 

 

It wasn't until you mentioned that you went to the district finance committee that I said they had no authority and that the control rested soley with the troop itself. And only after you recieved, what I consider poor advice, to sue that I pointed out the charter organization owns the unit and it's assets.

 

You did not give a fair or accurate representation of our discourse.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Mike Long]

Online training.

 

All the data and answers in one place accessible and searchable online 24/7. No longer would training be subject to the opinions, mistakes, ommissions or additions of local trainers or those who might accuse the local trainers of such. Also no longer would there be leaders waiting for a local council to hold a training course only to discover that the class is full or conflicts with another activity (scouting or otherwise.)

 

This would not be difficult to do only time consuming. All Scouting materials are printed. That means they exist in an electronic format somewhere and would be easy to port over to a web format. The training syllabi could easily be duplicated in such a way that would be effective online.

 

Granted the teambuilding exercises are not web friendly but much the same a very large percentage of the information is. By no means do I think we should even consider replacing hands on training but online training would be a great benefit for many Scouters.

 

But the problem still remains that some folks will refuse to use it or use it and only take from it what they want to.

 

As an Eagle, a Scouter and a internet user interface and content specialist I hearby volunteer to help.

[sctmom]

No matter what format the training is, no matter how hard you try, there are HUMANS involved, therefore there will ALWAYS be interpretations that differ.

 

Here is one for you -- is this in the manuals?

What do you allow or disallow for food on a weekend campout? I've seen one troop say "no hotdogs or poptarts", yet each kid can bring his own personal stash of junk food and sodas if he wants to carry it. Another troop says "hotdogs and poptarts are okay, but NO personal stash of food and NO sodas, but you can eat the koolaid out of the tub if you wish, as long as the patrol bought it".

Each one has their own reasoning and each one has good point and bad points.

 

To me it doesn't matter, just strange how one set of adults see poptarts as horrible while allowing the kids to eat potato chips all weekend, while another troop thinks eating poptarts is better than drinking soda. Yet some others believe let the kids eat what they want, they will soon learn the downside of 3 days of hotdogs and plan better next time.

 

Somethings we have to say THIS IS THE WAY IT IS. I think BSA does that with youth protection, firearm safety and a few other areas. But we can't expect every troop to be exactly the same. Do I believe we should follow the rules? Yes. I also believe there is some vagueness in BSA literature.

 

My 2 cents worth -- again.

 

 

[Bob White]

I think the NFL is the closest example of how scouting works. The teams have independent owners that all agree to follow the same rules. The rules are set by a committee representative of the owners. The team hires coaches who don't do the actual playing. Even though every team has the same rules to follow and the same basic plays and players, each has their own game plan and variety of plays. Teams can be as creative in their plays as they desire as long as it stays within the rules and boundaries of the game.

 

The League and the their officials are not there to interfere with the game but to identify and clarify rules and infractions.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)