sctmom Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 Okay, the other thread about hazing got me thinking about snipe hunting. I never told you guys about the snipe hunt from a few months ago. I have to say this was the BEST way to snipe hunt! You all should know I don't approve of the traditional snipe hunt. There were a BUNCH of brand new scouts. The older boys took them out in the woods of the campground and tried to take away their flashlights (some boys refused to give them up..lol). While they were being taken around the campground, low and behold but a SNIPE comes into the campsite. The SM quickly runs the SNIPE into the troop trailer. (don't ask why the ASM was unaccounted for at this time..hehehe). The SM starts sending runners to get all the boys back. We have a snipe in the trailer and he is tearing things up. You can hear him. (sounds like a metal cup being thrown around the trailer). What is he doing to the equipment? Oh my, what if he tears up the trailer? We MUST get him out. We've never been so lucky to actually CATCH a snipe! This is SO exciting! Everybody grab a stick, (please no tire irons or heavy objects, we don't want to actually KILL the snipe). Form a big circle, don't stand too close, we are going to open the doors and he might jump out. Ready? (I was in my tent and could hear the excitement of the new scouts...some were barely breathing.) When the doors flew open, the snipe was so violent, he threw out a small bucket...then.......... Everyone had a good time, no feelings were hurt, no trust lost, no one left in the woods, no one upset. The older boys felt they had gotten one over on the new scouts. The new scouts thought it was sooo funny. Sort of like telling a ghost story. Approved by all scouts and parents on the trip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubsRgr8 Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 What fun! It sounds like your troop has a great tradition going. Please pass on any other ideas, as my son's troop seems a little weak in this area and (since I'm still a Cubmaster) I see it as my solemn duty to liven things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 First, I agree. It sounds like all, the boys and the SM corps, had a great time. I think it was perfectly acceptable, and an interesting twist, which accomplished its intended goals (fun for all, but without hurting anyone's feelings). I applaud your SM. However, let me point out that everything, including this "stunt" has risks. I have no bone of contention with your "new tradition". Yet, using your own standards for hazing, let me demonstrate how this situation could have gone wrong. What if some of the boys became frightened by the specter of a "wild animal" being so close to them? What if some of the boys because of their fear refused to form the circle to trap the animal? What if some of the boys who were either not afraid or had caught on to the prank, made fun of the boys who were afraid? What if some of the boys burst into tears when the "wild animal" emerged from the trailer? What if some of the boys became so embarrassed by this incident, that they dropped out of the troop? One could point out all of these "what ifs" and claim that your SM contrived a horrible prank. One might even portray this stunt as hazing. I don't agree with that claim. I merely want to show you that the best and most noble ideas can be abused. Now, let me explain why I would argue that your SM did an excellent job of providing a fun and safe snipe hunt. I am fairly confident that if the SM or another adult monitoring the activity noticed any of these things developing (fear, taunting, embarrassment, etc.), they would have consulted the Scout in question or stopped the activity all together. I am convinced that most caring adults are smart enough to see when a prank or activity has gone wrong and promptly correct the situation. That's why we adults are here. In another thread, there is much being made over the tradition of "singing for lost possessions". As your story illustrates, if thoughtful adults are doing their jobs, these traditions can provide wonderful opportunities for fun, excitement, and learning. Again, I think your SM and troop created an outstanding and thrilling moment for your boys. Best of all, no one was intimidated. Nevertheless, all of these things have an element of risk. I hope you see my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle90 Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 What if....What if....My God have we become so overprotective and politically correct that we can't have a little fun in scouting without having to analyze everything to death and research the long term psychological effects? Time to let some of these kids grow up and get some real world experiences. You won't have someone there to protect you every day of your life from every obscure threat that may happen. In my 25+ years as SM I haven't seen any scout that I know of become traumatized because of some innocent fun. Let's lighten up and have some fun!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 eagle90, That's exactly my point. Trust me, you're preaching to the choir. I was simply illustrating to sctmom that the same logic that permitted this controlled snipe hunt should be applied to "singing for lost possessions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctmom Posted May 30, 2002 Author Share Posted May 30, 2002 Not the same, anyone could opt out of the snipe hunt. Some did because they were so tired, they headed to their tents. No one was singled out and embarrassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 sctmom, YES. Please reread my posts on this subject under the thread "Hazing". I specifically mentioned that no one should force a boy to do ANYTHING against his will (including singing in front of a group). Like I said, use the same logic. Again, I have no problem with the snipe hunt that you described. However, if you want to nit-pick, there's more danger of a child being humiliated in your "snipe hunt" scenario than the "singing for lost possessions" scenario. In your example, the boys do not know that the event is staged. They do not know whether or not the danger is real. This fact opens the door to all the "what ifs" I listed in my previous post. In regard to my example, I made it known that the boy is allowed to opt out and do something else. He is NOT forced to participate as you have indicated. Regardless, as I said, as long as thoughtful and caring adults are monitoring these activities, no harm should come to the boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctmom Posted May 30, 2002 Author Share Posted May 30, 2002 Rooster, I'm afraid many adults would not know when to stop. I understand YOU would watch for signs and be aware if this is the wrong kid to put in the spotlight. I hope that all others have that awareness and intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixote Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 I don't understand how this is any different from the old snipe hunt except that the adults were involved. New kids were still initiated into a troop by playing a prank on them - ok, you played the prank on all the kids. Don't get me wrong, I don't think you hazed them, i just don't see the difference between your joke and singing scouts with the possible exception that the scouts being asked to sing are being taught something where yours are just being made fun of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Folks, I can't locate this in the new Scout handbook but on page 300 of the 1990 printing, there is a picture of a common snipe! So snipe hunting is really no more than bird watching! If the fun like snipe hunting & looking for the three way left handed smoke shifter with the hickory handle is taken out of Scouting then what will be next? No pocket knives because someone might get cut? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Sorry Ed, If you regard snipe hunts and looking for fictional camp gadgets as the "fun in scouting" then you and I have seriously different versions of what constitutes fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 OGe, I'll bite! What would you consider fun and why don't you consider snipe hunts & the like fun? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Ed, read the left handed smoke shifter thread, especially my posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jps Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Scouters, The only good snipe hunt is the one in the fall with a good dog. The snipe hunts and wild goose chases that are being referred to are nothing more than hazing. It was hazing 30 years ago and it is still hazing. (I must admit that I have been on both sides of the hazing and laughed as hard as anyone else, but I have changed and so has the world around us.) Placing Scouts in a situation that exploits their errors or ignorance to the delight of others is hazing. This is not part of the promise that we as Scouters make to the program and the Scouts. I suggest that if you wish to encourage the Scouts to grow andd become young men of character, you create positive learning experiences for them and have fun. There are many program sources that can provide you with examples. JPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 jps, Wouldn't some of the rituals used in OA ceremonies be considered hazing by your definition? And what is the difference between those & a search for 50 ft. of left handed shore line? And being endorsed by the BSA is not a good answer. OGE, I read that thread. While I don't agree with you, I respect you opinion. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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