Where does it Say...

[Rooster7]

Their is a difference between separating a scout from danger such as taking away a misused tool, or segrating him from the other scouts for their safety, and making a scout stand up and sing, (or as some troops do, push a penny across the floor with your nose.). There is no way you can defend stunt as a positive way to protect scouts or teach the importance of following rules. The sole purpose of stunts is to embarrass the scout, and that is a violation of Youth Protection Policies.

 

While I don't have a problem with the tradition of "singing for lost possessions", you have confused your arguments. That topic is being covered under the thread of "Hazing".

 

Again I ask, "Why the enthusiasm for wanting to be able to punish other peoples children?" In what scout manual is punishment listed as a skill or responsibility of the SM or ASMs?

 

Interesting that you keep portraying us as being "enthusiastic" and "wanting" to "punish other peoples children". I find that to be offensive and a cheap tactic. The point that we are making is that unit leaders have authority to institute punishments (or discipline) in a number of ways. The fact that they should advise and seek assistance from the Scout's parents does not prevent them from taking such actions.

 

Please don't answer with "where does it say we can't". That is a weak excuse for not following rules. The manuals don't say you shouldn't run over a scout in a blue Chevy on a Tuesday, does that make it OK to do?

 

If BSA wanted to remove all authority from Scoutmasters to punish Scouts, they would simply have left the word "corporal" out of the following statement:

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The manuals don't say a lot of things. They appear to give adult leaders some credit for being thinking individuals. By the way, nor do the manuals say, "When in doubt, ask Bob White."

 

The GTSS is clear that parents are to be involved, that scouts are not to be hazed, and that the Leader is responsible for maintaining a safe haven.

 

True, but this statement does not conflict with the contention that a Scoutmaster has authority to implement discipline. You are mixing arguments .

 

If that is not enough the Scout Law charges us with being friendly, courteous and kind.

 

Words to live by indeed.

 

[ScouterPaul]

I've been following this thread and the Hazing thread closely. If I understand Bob White correctly he is saying that we as leaders can not punish a Scout at any time. It is up to the Parents or the committee with the parents to determine punishment. Rooster is saying that we as leaders can punish the scouts (NOT Corporal Punishment) as long as the parents are notified and asked for their assistance. WOW!! Who is correct? I suppose it depends on your definition of punish and punishment.

 

What about the following situation, would it be considered punishment or teaching?

You have a Scout who as been instructed on how to properly set up a tent several times. It's Friday night and it is going to rain. You observe this Scout setting up his tent incorrectly and in the wrong place. You know that the Scout will get extremely wet during the night. You decide to let the Tent stay as is and have the Scout learn the hard way (it is summer and there is not a safety issue). It rains and everything in the tent gets soaked. Is this punishment, hazing or learning a lesson?

[Bob White]

It is neither punishment or harrassment since it is not being done to the scout. He was trained and he did it incorrectly. No rule was been broken, no harm was done to the scout or anyone else. Sometimes we learn best by our failures.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND. If you taught the scout 5 times and still he did not learn it is time to look at the methods of the teacher as hard as you look at the ability of the learner.

 

Also, I would hope as a good leader you would counsel the PL on his responsibility to help develop the skills of the patrol and his role in protecting the welfare of the patrol members. perhaps he could have a plan-B ready for when the scout realizes he has done a poor job of tent pitching. (just because it is a warm night does not mean the scout would not be in jeopardy of becoming ill.)

 

Bob White

[eisely]

I don't think everybody is as far apart as it may seem. Everybody agrees that maintaining discipline about such things as knives, fires, safety afloat, etc. is a use of the word discipline that is separate from the idea of punishment.

 

In my mind, separating boys for whatever reason and calling timeout is not punishment. Depriving a scout of scout privileges could be construed as a form of punishment but seems to me to be wholly consistent with G2SS. In other threads the issue of suspending a boy from scouting or revoking membership altogether was discussed. Losing membership permanently could be a form of punishment and this is an action that should not be within the sole authority of any adult. None of these actions legitimizes corporal punishment, verbal abuse, putting a kid on bread and water or anything that might be considered true punishment. I don't think that a scoutmaster has to consult with parents before confiscating a knife or exiling a scout to his tent for period of time.

[evmori]

OK. The Scout who has been taught 5 time how & where to put up a tent & still does it wrong then is left to sleep in it during the rain & everything gets wet. Is this punishment? It could be considered that. And according to Bob, this is in direct contradiction to the G2SS. Therefore, this Scoutmaster should be branded & removed from Scouting for a direct policy violation! I don't think so.

 

Once again, I agree with Rooster7. Yes the G2SS is clear about getting the parents involved but it doesn't say when that involvement should occur.

 

Bob,

I'm a little puzzled about the way you handled the Scout with marijuana. Considering illegal drugs are forbidden in Scouting, did you review this with the committee and the parents? Didn't you punish him by sending him home early?

 

By stating that the committee and parents can punish doesn't mean the SM can't. The G2SS doesn't say the committee and parents are the ONLY ones who can punish.

 

I don't have a wish to punish other people's children. I don't even like ounishing my own but if the need arises then I will in both cases.

 

Dan,

Thanks for the link. It will come in handy since I don't carry my G2SS around 24/7.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[ScoutParent]

"The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members."

 

It is obvious by this statement that you may not use corporal punishment while disciplining youth members but what does disciplining mean? When I looked it up in the dictionary, I found the following:

 

tr.v. disciplined, disciplining, disciplines

To train by instruction and practice, especially to teach self-control to.

To teach to obey rules or accept authority. See Synonyms at teach.

To punish in order to gain control or enforce obedience. See Synonyms at punish.

To impose order on: needed to discipline their study habits.

 

As you can see you may use punishments while in the act of disciplining. You also may impose order in the act of disciplining. Time out & loss of privileges are two ways to accomplish this. Other methods that I would prefer to see used include POSITIVE reinforcement such as awards or perks for good behavior. I don't think it is an eagerness to punish scouts but rather an eagerness to understand the expectations of the BSA that is driving this discussion.

[Bob White]

Ed,

I did what the book said, I included the parents. I did not do the punishing. I protected the other scouts from theis boy and the parents removed him from the camp site. I didn't have him flop on the graound like bacon, sing for forgiveness, or any other silly stunt. I didn't even make his parents come. I gave them a choice, they could come get him or I could have the local police come and get him, their choice.

As far as the tent, as i said before you didn't tell the scout to sleep in the rain, You showed him whatto do and he did it wrong. As I continued to say I would make sure there was a plan to keep the scout safe and dry if in fact the weather did turn bad. So my intent was not to haze or embarass the scout. My intent was to let him practice the skill and to protect him if something went wrong.

 

I have to question the effectiveness of flopping on the ground like bacon or singing I'm a Little Teapot to teach a scout responsibility. The use of checklists, Pack shakedowns, Campsite organiozation, proper packing methods, to name afew, are positive educational ways to educate scouts on this topic.

 

I'm sorry but to think that singing a nursery rhyme song "teaches" a skill is as silly as the song itself.

 

Bob

[Sdriddle]

O.K. everyone, I feel that the whole point of my post has been misunderstood and taken to an extreme. I am really trying to get a feel for a complete boy led troop. Our troop is struggling with getting the boys to take responsiblity for their positions and am looking for what is within the bounds of the PLC to have control of. I did not mean punishment, merely do you think that the PLC can handle the decision of whether a boy can continue to be a part of the elite flag core if he is not adhereing to the policies (which are being hashed out by an adult to be approved by the committee) or should the decisions be made solely by the adults. Is there any precedent in your troop or in any BSA literature concerning anything like this situation? I just want to suggest the right thing to the adults who will make the decision concerning the policy.

 

Sheila

[ScouterPaul]

Sdriddle

You are quite correct. As a group we can get quite passionate about things and go way off on tangents. In my opinion the Scouts should be able to make the decision within set quidelines.

 

Now having said that I would like to address the wet tent scenerio. I tend to agree with Rooster on this issue. I do not think that allowing the Scout to get wet is punishment. However, if we take all rules and regs as black and white with no common sense then this could be construed as punishment. The leader might be thinking that he has been taught several times how to to that it will serve him right to get wet. Is it punishment?

[Bob White]

Sdriddle,

To the best of my knowledge there are no guidelines in the BSA that gives guidance on how to run an elite group within a troop that some boys are not allowed to participate in.

 

ScouterPaul,

It's interesteing that you agree with Rooster on the tent scenario since up to this point he has not posted his opinion on it, and as I reread the posters that have, I see no one who viewed it as a punishment.

 

Evmori said that I did (Is this punishment? It could be considered that. And according to Bob, this is in direct contradiction to the G2SS.) but if you reread my post you will see that is not what I said.

 

Just wanted to clarify.

 

Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[ScouterPaul]

Bob

My apologies. My mouth and fingers sometimes get ahead of my brain. Sorry.

 

Paul

[dan]

Sheila

Oh you trouble maker you!

I wish I could give you a real answer only my ideas, and with that and $1.39 you can but a cup of coffee!

Yes I believe that the PLC can make these decision, given the correct information, but the SM may have to come down on the leaders if they are not leading. IMHO if a scout has a Position of Responsibility he must be coached how to do it and if he is not doing the job after being "coached he needs to be removed from the POR if he does not step up to the plate! You can not have scouts in POR and not doing anything with it and using it for Advancement, but I am putting the responsibility of seeing it get done on the leaders but the responsibility of the POR on the scout.

I hope this help!

 

[LongHaul]

Bob White,

Having read and reread your posts in this thread, I notice your steadfast belief that you should not impose a punishment upon scouts in your troop. "Define terms" a wise teacher always told us, so I looked up punishment. Punishment n. 1. A penalty imposed, as for transgression of law. 2. Any ill suffered in consequence of wrongdoing.

 

I wonder, Bob, who decided to call the boys parents when the marijauna was discovered? Was it a result of a consultation between you , your COR, and the Troop Committee? Or did you act unilateraly and decide the penalty for being in possesion of marijuana was to be excluded from the group? Was this a rule previously set by the PLC? Was the PLC consulted before the parents were called? You so desperatly need to be perceived as following every rule every time, both by others and by yourself that you over complicate issues. "Punishment" in your mind carries a negative connotation and therefore you would never do it, yet what you say you actually did fits the definition of punishment. Maybe for the sake of this discussion we could agree that discipline is a variety of internal and extrenal controls that define and maintain acceptable behavior. Punishment is action taken after a rule or discipline is violated in order to enforce the discipline. Wasn't your action as a result of discovering marijuana taken to enforce dicipline (the rules)? The boy broke the rules and suffered the consequences, crime and punishment. I believe you handled the situation properly, you would have been justified in calling the local police (in my opinion) as following the guidelines of Youth Protection and reporting an incidence of drug use. Anything leaders, both youth and adult, do in response to a breaking of the rules which limits or restricts the "breaker" can be interperated as punishment

 

Lastly I can find no reference to "punishment" in the G2SS except in conjunction with the word corporal. The G2SS does not say the parents should be involved in "Punishment", is does not address "Punishment"

[evmori]

Bob,

By separating the Scout from the rest of the Troop (regardless the reason)is punishment. Appropriate but still punishment. Plus, you threatened the Scout by giving the parents the option to come get him or call the local police! WOW!

 

In my Troop, the Scout would have also been suspended for 60 days. What he did is a direct violation to BSA rules.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

 

 

[Bob White]

Ed,

I disagree, I did not threaten the scout with anything, I spoke to the parents and asked them which action they wanted to take. His punishment was not in being separated that was purely to protect the other scouts. He was not lectured, made to clean a latrine, or emabarrassed in front of the others. In fact only a few other scouts knew what was happening and they were instructed not to discuss the event with anyone other than the adults.

 

It was a contigency trip so this scout was not in the home troop that I served, I had no power to suspend him from his troop's activities. My responsibility was to the safety of the other scouts and the continuation of the trip. The parents chose the option to come get the scout. I would have been fine with either option.

 

Bob White