Where does it Say...

[Sdriddle]

I thought I read somewhere that the SPL and the PLC can handle some discipline problems. I am running into adults who think all disicpline should be handled by the adults. Am I off my rocker?

 

Sheila

[Bob White]

Discipline in scouting is handled through training, counseling and use of the Oath and Law.

 

Punishment is handled by the parents of the scout and the troop committee. (see the Guide to Safe Scouting)

 

Bob White

[dan]

BUT

Now we need a definition of Punishment and Discipline. That all can agree to!

Is it singing! Is it a SPL telling a scout that he has to do a special task to do?

 

[eisely]

It seems to me that the word discipline needs to be explored here. If discipline refers narrowly to punishments, then that is the proper purview of the adult leadership, although I can see that youth leadership involvement is appropriate.

 

If discipline refers more broadly to such things as maintaining order and monitoring behavior then clearly there is much for youth leadership to do. For example, I would encourage the youth leadership to intervene in rough housing that may result in injury or is inappropriate for the circumstances. That is more like "maintaining discipline" and has nothing to do with punishments.

[Bob White]

Maybe for the sake of this discussion we could agree that discipline is a variety of internal and extrenal controls that define and maintain acceptable behavior. Punishment is action taken after a rule or discipline is violated in order to enforce the discipline.

 

Would this be generally acceptable?

 

If this is agreeable then I find nothing in any leadership training that empowers leaders to punish scouts accept for the unit committee in the presence of the scout's parents and the chartering organizations authority to revoke membership.

 

Keeping in mind that discipline comes before the transgression, program leaders have the responsibility to teach discipline but do not have authority to punish.

 

Does anyone find something different in the program resources?

 

Bob White

 

 

[Sdriddle]

Specifically, the committee has assigned an ASM to rework the elite flag corp policies. I have suggested that patrol leaders be able to nominate up to 2 boys a term /6 months to the PLC for membership on the corps. Also that the PLC be able to question a boy on behavior not fitting with being on the elite flag corp and discuss his removal from the group if necessary with the Scoutmaster overseeing and approving the whole thing. Currently the boys already in the corps get to pick the new boys. Some adults want the adults to choose. I would like to see the boys have some say in it with an assigned leaders final approval. Have any of you ever had a boy go before the PLC to discuss behavior issues, or does it go straight to the SM. The troop is very immature and mostly in the 11-14 age group and most of the leaders have little faith in the boys making choices concerning these matters.

Sheila

[Bob White]

Why not let any scout who is willing to learn the skills needed to be in the flag corps participate? Isn't the behavior expected in the "elite" corps the same behavior expected of any scout?

If a scout does not behave in accordance with the Oath and Law or the policies of the BSA then the Safe Guide to Scouting says that he and his parents meet with the troop committee.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Rooster7]

Keeping in mind that discipline comes before the transgression, program leaders have the responsibility to teach discipline but do not have authority to punish. Does anyone find something different in the program resources?

 

The G2SS (although I'm not sure I have the current edition, so check it out) says in bold -

 

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth member who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

I understand this statement to say that corporal punishment is prohibited. It does not ban other kinds of punishments by unit leaders.

 

The G2SS goes on further to say:

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

Certainly BSA is not inferring that the Scoutmaster and/or the PLC should ignore non-repetitive or less serious incidents. As I read this statement injunction with the others (already noted), I conclude that unit leaders can discipline/punish Scouts. They handle the routine day-to-day stuff. When the behavior escalates to something more serious, or if the Scout refuses to yield, then the issue is referred to committee.

 

[Bob White]

Rooster was kind enough to show the exact phrase from the GTSS.

 

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth member who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

To intercede is to step and cease the action. It does not include punishing. Bold lettering in the GTSS is unalterable policy, Parents of youth member who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

Thanks Rooster,

 

Bob

[evmori]

To intercede is to step and cease the action. It does not include punishing. Bold lettering in the GTSS is unalterable policy.

 

Bob,

Where does it say in bold letters "do not punish" other than corporal punishment? It doesn't say anything about it in my copy of the G2SS.

 

What if on a camping trip a Scout steals something from another Scout and is caught? After the Scoutmaster contacts the parents, should the Scout have the same privledges as all the other Scouts? Or should he be restricted to his tent until mom & dad come for him? Or is that punishment? And if it is, is it allowed? And if not, where in writting does the BSA forbid it?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[dan]

Edd

For the most update info on GTSS go here

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/about.html

 

All persons responsible for youth safety must understand and appreciate Scouting's position of zero tolerance for child abuse or victimization in any form. Unit leaders should report any suspected abuse to the local council Scout executive.

 

Hazing and Initiations

All forms of hazing, initiations, ridicule, or inappropriate teasing are prohibited and should not be allowed.

 

 

[Bob White]

What part of having the parents involved in any punishment is difficult to understand. In what part of Scout Leader training were you taught that punishing scouts was part of your responsibility. I have made parents drive 1,000 miles to retrieve a boy who could not act like a scout so that they could punish him as they saw fit, and I could get back to working with Boy Scouts. (By the way, he had marijuana with him and No, I did not have him sing to get it back.)

 

While we waited for the boys parents to arrive he was kept segrated from the other boys in the company of two adults. This was not done to punish the boy, but to protect the other scouts from him. I have neither the time or motivation to punish any child other than my own.

 

Where does it say that a Scoutmaster cannot punish? Where it says that the parents, the committee in the presence of the parents, and the Charter organization can punish. They list who can because it is a much shorter list than who can't.

 

What is this basis for your vigor to want to punish other peoples children. Is your program so weak? your training ability so poor? Your example so skewed that you cannot get boys to be trustworthy, friendly, obedient, and clean unless you punish them to achieve it? Anyone who needs to dole out punishment to reach the goals of scouting is doing it wrong.

 

Kid tested & pWhere does it say that a Scoutmaster punishes? Nowhaere it says that the parents, the committee in the presence of the parents, and the Charter organization can punish. They list who can because it is a much shorter list than who can't.

 

Kid Tested and Parent Approved,

Bob White

[sctmom]

Sdriddle,

 

A few questions. What types of behavior do the boys think are reasons to be removed from the elite flag corps? I think the boys should have some say in who represents their troop and has such an honor as the the ELITE flag corps. This is the boy's troop.

 

Do the adults let the boys choose things like Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader? I hope so.

 

I'm amazed to see what 11-14 year old boys can do when put in the situation. Many times they can be very fair and understanding -- if they have seen that example in the adults around them.

 

If there is a serious problem of behavior, I'm assuming the adults are handling it per BSA policies and procedures. As long as the boys keep in line with the program, it is THEIR troop and THEIR flag corp. Let them decide who is in it.

 

If the boys decide someone who constantly gets in trouble cannot be on the flag corps, so be it. I would think they would want to make sure the members of this elite group show proper respect for the flag, show up on time, wear their uniform correctly and with pride, etc.

 

[Rooster7]

Parents of youth member who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

This does not say a unit leader cannot punish/discipline a Scout. It merely says that the parents need to be advised and their assistance requested. If the parents refuse to assist the unit leader, it does not prohibit the unit leader from acting alone. As long as he has informed the parents and asked for their assistance, he's fulfilled the mandate.

 

If a SM sees that a Scout is not handling a knife safely, it's within his right to take it away from him. Furthermore, he may very well advise the Scout that he's lost his privilege to bring a knife until he can demonstrate to him that he understands safe knife handling procedures. Likewise, if a SM notices that a Scout is acting un-Scout-like, it's within his right to send that Scout to his tent. Now, one can play word games, but I see these things as punishments. This type of discipline is common in almost every troop. There is nothing in the G2SS that prohibits these actions. "Advising parents and asking for their assistance" does not mean to the exclusion of all other actions. This, once again, is Bob's interpretation. An interpretation that he apparently feels is so obvious, that he's willing to insult and be condescending to anyone who does not agree with him. Unfortunately, this is his standard MO for squelching the advise of others who refuse to accept his interpretations.

 

[Bob White]

Their is a difference between separating a scout from danger such as taking away a misused tool, or segrating him from the other scouts for their safety, and making a scout stand up and sing, (or as some troops do, push a penny across the floor with your nose.). There is no way you can defend stunt as a positive way to protect scouts or teach the importance of following rules. The sole purpose of stunts is to embarrass the scout, and that is a violation of Youth Protection Policies.

 

Again I ask, "Why the enthusiasm for wanting to be able to punish other peoples children?" In what scout manual is punishment listed as a skill or responsibility of the SM or ASMs?

 

Please don't answer with "where does it say we can't". That is a weak excuse for not following rules. The manuals don't say you shouldn't run over a scout in a blue Chevy on a Tuesday, does that make it OK to do?

 

The GTSS is clear that parents are to be involved, that scouts are not to be hazed, and that the Leader is responsible for maintaining a safe haven. If that is not enough the Scout Law charges us with being friendly, courteous and kind.

 

Evidently that is not enough direction for some.

 

Bob White