Winter Camp-out for Cubs

[Eamonn]

MaScout

Far from hammering anyone, my point was/is:

You can do whatever you like outside of Scouting.

But BelieveinScouts didn't ask how we spent our free time outside of Scouting.

As to:

" Remember, there are always AT LEAST two ways to say something, and one of them is nice! When forum members have a gut reaction to something, we need to THINK before we fire back a response...

I'm sorry but I keep thinking about people in glass houses.

There is a very good 8 page Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines (13-631c) available from the National Office or I'm sure your local service center would be able to order it for you.

But these Guidelines would only apply if you are taking Cub Scouts away.

If I were to plan the Eamonn Family Reunion Camp not a BSA facility and we all were to wear the traditional Irish kilts with the county Meath and County Louth tartans. I feel almost sure that my uncle Paddy would have a drop of potcheen ((AKA poteen or poitin) in his sporran. Which as this wasn't a Scouting activity would be much appreciated.

If it was a Scouting activity we might have to deport him (I would of course have to confiscate the offending liquid!!)

Eamonn.

 

[Newbie Den Leader]

John-in-KC states:

 

"If something unfortunate happens ...

 

- Your plan places the property owner at risk of a negligence suit.

- Your plan places the principal leader at risk of a negligence suit.

- Should your "grouping" include divorced partners, your plan places the other parent at risk of a negligence suit.

 

Overall, this is A BAD IDEA ..."

 

 

 

John,

 

Yes, it's a bad idea when you invite folks you do not know. It's a great idea when you want to take your son camping. BTW, I would not camp on anyone's property without their permission.

 

My camp would be a "personal" campout and not under the guise as a Cub event. A Scout is trustworthy and obedient. The Holy Scriptures also teach me not bear "false witness". I would never go knowingly or willingly go against G2SS. If I could not follow G2SS, then I would would resign my position as an adult leader.

 

Lawsuits? The BSA would not be involved if someone gets hurt. It's my campout and the BSA is out of the picture.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

I had poteen in my sporran once...took 10 days of antibiotics to clear it up!

[Eamonn]

scoutldr

Your lucky, when Uncle Paddy had it we we had to travel all over Ireland, looking in a lot of very welcoming places before we could help him remove it from his sporran.

Even then he didn't give it up without a fight.

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC]

Mr NDL,

 

If it's you and your son, may I suggest at least an initial shakedown in the backyard as the temps dip below freezing. It'll help him learn, and there are folks keeping an eye on him/you only 50 feet away.

[BelieveinScouts]

Hello again,

 

I appreciate all of your comments. They are always helpful. I think we will rent a heated Cabin. No disrespect to my Boys, but I don't think they are ready for Winter Tent Camping yet. Maybe next year.

 

I do have to say though, I think a lot of these Guidelines must be the reason a lot of Den Leaders step down. My Den has gone on almost a Field trip every month from Sept-May for the last three years. We always found someplace to take the boys that went a long with our theme. We've had a Den Camp-out every year too. I never filed Tour permits because I didn't know I had to. Now that I know, I wish I didn't.

 

When I signed up as a Tiger Leader, they told me Scouting would take up about three hours a week. Hah! Every year it gets more complicated. Now it takes me three hours to fill out the paperwork involved.

 

After all of this, I just want to help my boys be well prepared when they cross into Boy Scouts, and then I'm done. I love my guys, but this has become a full time 2nd job. I love it. Honestly I do. I wish I could quit my real job and just be a Scout Leader and get paid for it. That's not an option though.

 

It seems everytime I come up with a good idea that I think will be fun for the boys and help prepare them for Boy Scouts, now I run into a mile of Red Tape. I wouldn't bother at all if it weren't for the kids.

 

I know that we live in a Society that sues over a nosebleed, but all this Red tape is a real kill joy. By the time we get to the activity I'm already sick of it because of the paperwork. Then I have to remind myself to shake it off so the boys don't see it in my face or attitude.

 

I just wish there were a simpler way.

[SR540Beaver]

BelieveinScouts,

 

There is a simplier way, training. No offense, but there really are not that many restrictions, forms to fill out or red tape to deal with. There is a reason that each district has a trainer, training is provided for free and classes are held on a regular basis. Some classes are even available on-line. Each month from September to May, your district has a roundtable meeting for adult leaders. Often classes are held in conjuction with roundtable. Roundtable provides a wealth of information of what is going on in your council and district and then there are breakout sessions where you can get program ideas and network with your peers. All of the things you are finding out now in Webelos, would have been easy and beneficial to learn in the first couple of months as a Tiger......if someone would have pointed you in the right direction. Usually that person would be the Cubmaster of Pack Committee Chair. In a well run and staffed Pack, you should have a committee member who is responsible for training and encouraging new adults to get trained.

[BelieveinScouts]

Thanks SR540Beaver. I appreciate your comments. Our problem is that we have no committee. We are the largest Pack in our area and we have a very hard time getting our parents to volunteer for anything. I'm serving as a Den Leader and as the Asst. Cubmaster, Day Camp Director, Recruiter, Webmaster, etc. Our Pack is primarily run by all the Den Leaders. Our Cubmaster is also serving as a Den Leader. His Wife is also a Den Leader. They are a great couple and we all work very well together. I've heard of Packs with Committees, Trainers, and Advancement chairs, but I've never actually seen one. All the other Packs in our town are smaller than we are, and do less than we do.

 

I have taken all the training online that I can. Sent in all my forms to Council and have yet to receive a Trained strip.

 

I've taken the Fast start training for each level. The Leader Specific is only offered a couple of times a year, and so far, I've had to work everytime. It's also being held at a Venue 45 mins away. Our District Exec asked all of us what we wanted to see more of and local training was at the top of the list. Even our Roundtables take place a 1/2 hour away and starts at 5:30pm. Getting off around 5:30pm there's no way I could make it in time.

 

Even when we've gone on Skiing Trips, etc. I've e-mailed Rosters of attendees to our District Exec and never had anyone mention filing a local Tour Permit. The only reason I found out was by surfing our Council Website and seeing it under forms. My Cubmaster did attend Leader specific training and he said they didn't mention it in the class he took. He didn't know about filing a local Tour Permit until I told him.

 

Obviously we have a communication gap here. I'm going to mention that to our District Exec. He's a really great guy and is always willing to help me muddle my way through.

 

I try not to get discouraged, but it's hard sometimes. I always feel like I refuse to have my boys miss out on some great experience because of paperwork. Even if it means e-mailing my poor District Exec 10 times, I make sure it all gets done so the boys get to go. I wish someone had told me sooner. Lisa Bob suggested getting all the info at the beginning of the year, and you can bet I will next year.

 

Even my son has made me promise not to be a Leader in BSA. He's tired of seeing me spend all my time on Scouts. He loves Scouts, but he told me that he wished we could just show up once a week like everyone else. Bless his heart.

 

I'm sure I'll help out, but I think that's about it. I love Scouts, and I think it can be Life Changing for a Boy. I think it can give them a whole library of wonderful childhood memories. It's just the little stuff that gets me. Some of the Posters on this Forum are so hard core, I think you'd never be allowed to take the boys out of the Den Meeting room. LOL

 

I'm sure it will all work out fine. We may rent a heated Cabin and just do an overnight to get the boys used to the idea that it is possible to do outdoor activities even in the Winter. Hopefully, it will open their minds to the possibility, and soften them up for future events.

 

Thanks for everyones advice. I find this Forum to be tremendously helpful. As you can see, getting info isn't always the easiest thing to do in our neck of the woods. I appreciate being able to get it here.

 

YIS

[Beavah]

Believin', it may be that your council does not require Tour Permits for trips within the council service area. There are a lot of councils like that. Yours may be one. That's the danger of internet advice, eh? It's often very authoritative, and wrong.

 

I'd also find one mom to handle paperwork. Simple job, not much commitment, good for someone to do on da side. No point in you spendin' your time. Most unit leaders who are good with kids aren't very good with paperwork, eh?

 

 

[Lisabob]

Believe wrote: "Even my son has made me promise not to be a Leader in BSA. He's tired of seeing me spend all my time on Scouts. He loves Scouts, but he told me that he wished we could just show up once a week like everyone else. Bless his heart. "

 

Boy do I understand that! My son made the same basic comment toward the end of his WII year. Since then, my husband has completely gotten out of scouting (after being a den leader for 2 1/2 years, and very good at it) and although I'm still involved, I've pulled back a lot (I had a variety of hats in the pack). The first 6 months my son was in the troop I was completely on the sidelines as "just a parent." And 15 months into things, I'm still carefully trying not to get over-involved in what should be HIS experience, though I am a committee member.

 

Having said all that, part of the problem could be the number of hats you're wearing. I did it too at various stages in cubs. Probably like you, I did it because I believe in the program and I didn't want to see it flop, and if I was going be associated with it, it was somewhat less grievance to me personally just to do it, than to put up w/ half-baked, poor planning by other people who weren't that committed. (I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant!)

 

At the start, the pack was in total disarray due to a leader meltdown and I do believe that if I and a couple of other adults hadn't come forward, the pack might have folded. So I don't regret it. But after a little while, when things had stabilized again, what I found was that a) people absolutely would NOT step up to help because either they knew I'd do it in the end if no one else did or else maybe they were afraid of being in as deep as I was and b) the pack did just fine and suprise, new people stepped up to help, after I left. In a way, I think I had set myself up by being willing to step in and do whatever needed doing, when no one else would. That's ok short term but if you've become known as the go-to-person in your pack, think about scaling back. And yes, I do know exactly how hard that can be. But in the end it will be better for you, for your boy, and for the pack.

 

Bottom line: get back to a place where both you and your boy can enjoy scouting again and don't allow it to take over your life!

 

YIS,

Lisa'bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I'd like to thank fling1 for posting the guideline text on the other thread.

 

"The BSA recognizes that youth in various parts of the country develop at different rates. These guidelines are designed to demonstrate the mainstream of youth capabilities.

 

"For instance, Cub Scouts may be involved in winter camping in Alaska, where cold-weather activities are part of the culture. On the West Coast and Gulf Coast, surfing may be appropriate for Boy Scouts. In the Northeast, youth begin playing street and ice hockey at an early age.

 

"Because of the varying development rates among youth, these activity guidelines are flexible and should not be perceived as requirements or rules. They address the mainstream of youth abilities while allowing for exceptions for Scouting units and groups based on the consideration and judgment of unit, district, and council committees and boards."

 

So this would seem to make it pretty clear that winter camping is not expressly prohibited, as has been stated earlier in this thread. If your boys are prepared, you can do it. But if you don't know whether it would be a good idea, you probably shouldn't do it. Make sure you have a clue first.

 

Oak Tree

[Newbie Den Leader]

QUOTE: Our problem is that we have no committee..I've heard of Packs with Committees, Trainers, and Advancement chairs, but I've never actually seen one.

 

Believe,

 

We have had the same problem and getting a Pack to function by the BSA organization model is difficult to maintain. I often hear advice from training classes instructing leaders NOT TO DO more than one position in a Pack. Well, thats nice advice from the Ivory Towers, but not real world advice.

 

 

QUOTE: I have taken all the training online that I can. Sent in all my forms to Council and have yet to receive a Trained strip.

 

Believe,

 

Funny, I had the same problem. I spoke to my DE and asked him if he could give me a Trained strip since I had completed all of the requirements. He mailed the strip to me within a few days. Talk to your DE and ask him to help you.

 

 

[Lisabob]

I know of very few packs where all the leaders hold only one position each. I'm sure they're out there but probably not that common. However, if a single leader is doing the work of SEVERAL people then that's a serious problem. Speaking from experience: I found myself there with our cub pack for a while because things HAD to be done and nobody else would do them. For a very short time, in extreme circumstances, that might have to happen.

 

But I found that the more I did, the harder it was to give any of it away to others. Not so much because I wanted to be in control but I really believe, because others saw how deep I was in and they didn't want to end up there too. I think in some cases people thought if they took on one of "my" roles they'd end up with all of them.

 

As I got ready to move on to boy scouts I slowly stopped doing things. At first they stayed un-done (very hard for me!). After a little bit though people actually did come forward to do them. I was surprised at the time. But in retrospect it makes sense even if it is counter-intuitive.

 

As for the "trained" strip. To get that, one must complete NLE and position specific training. I don't know about your area, but around here these are NOT online. So although I might do a variety of online training (YPT, Fast Start, Safe Swim, maybe others) I wouldn't be fully trained and I wouldn't get my strip if I didn't physically attend the NLE and position specific training and I wouldn't expect my DE to mail it to me either. I wonder if that's the issue for Believe.

 

Lisa'bob

[BelieveinScouts]

Thanks Lisabob. I don't really need the Trained Strip to feel like a Den Leader. If they want all of our Leaders trained than they ought to offer training more than twice a year, and a little closer than 45 mins away. We need a Traveling Trainer or something. Most of our Leaders can't even make it to Roundtable because it's a 1/2 hour away. Their kids have other commitments too.

 

I'd love to attend training, but my job calls for working some Saturdays, and everytime they've had it, I've had to work and have been unable to switch with anyone.

 

I said in an earlier thread, our DE asked what we as Leaders would like to see more of, and almost everyone's top response was more accessible training.

 

It's too bad really. Maybe taking our comments back to Council will make something happen. Our District includes two very big cities to our North, and it seems for Council, everything is about them. The Little Packs on the outer fringes seem to get lost in the shuffle. My Cubmaster and I have even discussed trying to get someone Trained as a Trainer so we can do our own Training right here. When we mentioned it to other Cubmasters they all agreed they'd love to see that happen. Hopefully we'll be able to set something up over the Summer. Thanks for your help.

[Lisabob]

Oh I definitely understand about the lack of convenient, local training. For years and years our district training chair would only schedule trainings at one of the council camps that happens to be near his house. And which is a good hour's drive from 3/4 of the district's population.

 

Our local solution was to attend training sessions held by a different council. They actually had closer, more convenient, and CHEAPER training sessions. Quality tended to be better too!

 

But if that also isn't an option for you, depending on where you live, maybe call your training chair. I have known some who will do a training road show, if you can help them scare up a reasonable audience. Don't know if yours will do it, but it can't hurt to ask. Even if it is a "no" maybe it'll send (another) message to the trainers that they are not meeting demand, the way things are currently set up.

 

Lisa'bob