Winter Camp-out for Cubs

[Beavah]

If we as a Council have not done and are not doing a good job of informing people what the rule is? Shame on us.

If they know and choose to ignore the rule? Shame on them.

 

Yah, Eammon. But you missed one, eh?

 

"If we as a Council did not do and are not doing a good job of developing and updating the rules, with input from all of our members and a recognition of differences in abilities and needs, shame on us for writing a rule in the first place."

 

We hear about those not following the rules who have incidents sometimes. But we hear about plenty of people following the rules who have incidents and accidents, too. The numbers aren't that different.

 

Do we ever check how many who don't follow the rules have a good and safe time, that works well for their kids? And if that is the case, do we reconsider the rule?

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Do we ever check how many who don't follow the rules have a good and safe time, that works well for their kids? And if that is the case, do we reconsider the rule?

 

The speed limit says 40, but I've never had a problem doing 65.....should the speed limit be reconsidered? Most rules have a reason behind them. The fact that someone chooses to break a rule and is fortunate enough to not get hurt isn't a reason for doing away with a rule.

 

Besides, there is that whole "honor" thing that E mentioned to consider.

[funscout]

Okay, I'm a little confused. While I would not want to have a Webelos DEN camp-out in the winter, is it okay for a well-prepared Web.II (and his Dad) to camp with his prospective troop at Klondike Derby in January? Before I read this thread, I was planning on allowing my younger son to do this just like his older brother had done when he was a Web. II. After reading the first responses, I thought it wouldn't be allowed. Later responses led me to believe it could be allowed. Maybe my son won't even want to camp at Klondike and this will be a moot point, but so far, he has wanted to do everything his big brother has done.

[Lisabob]

Funscout,

 

My understanding is that no, webelos are not permitted to engage in winter camping where they'd be sleeping in tents (as opposed to heated cabins, which is another story). I know that in my area, council and district winter boy scouting events are sometimes open to webelos during the day, but webelos are never permitted to camp with troops at these events. (I believe this has been discussed elsewhere in threads on winter klondikes? But I haven't followed those discussions too closely)

 

Your own council might have a different interpretation of the age-appropriate guidelines and their applicability, judging from the conversation going on in this thread. So I guess if it were me, I'd be contacting my council to ask what their position is. I know in my council the answer would be that webelos may not sleep overnight at winter events.

 

Lisa'bob

[Eamonn]

Beavah

While I'm not a great lover of one size fits all rulings.

I do believe that if you don't agree with a rule you need to go through the correct channels to have it changed.

Each District has representatives on the Council Camping Committee.

Of course you may not get what you think is right, but that's life.

These Committees are made up of volunteers who really do have the good of the Scouts at heart.As a Scouter I think I'd feel better following a rule I may not agree with, than setting a bad example to the Scouts.

Eamonn.

[ScoutNut]

And as a parent, I would feel much better knowing that my son is in a unit that follows BSA rules AND guidelines.

 

He is a registered BSA scout BECAUSE of the BSA program, rules, & guidelines, which I feel are rather good. I would prefer the BSA errs on the side of overkill than let everyone "do their own thing" when it comes to the safety of children.

 

 

[Newbie Den Leader]

One way around all of this is simply go on a winter campout with your son by yourselves. You could privately invite another dad and his scout son to come along as friends. No invitations or announcements of your campout should be made at Pack or Den meetings. This would not be a "cub scout campout" or a "Pack outing", just a campout with your son and some friends. Keep all of your official scout gear at home and do not wear your uniforms or any part of them (class A or B).

 

No tour permits, no medical forms, and no rules broken. Have a good time.

 

 

[Eamonn]

Newbie Den Leader

While you are at it why not throw in Paint-balling, Sod surfing & hang gliding?

But I think we are talking about Scouting activities.

I do a lot of things with my son that I would never do with Scouts around!!

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC]

Mr NDL,

 

If something unfortunate happens ...

 

- Your plan places the property owner at risk of a negligence suit.

- Your plan places the principal leader at risk of a negligence suit.

- Should your "grouping" include divorced partners, your plan places the other parent at risk of a negligence suit.

 

Overall, this is A BAD IDEA ...

[MaScout]

You all forgot to hammer NDL about incorrect naming of the uniform, too... Remember, there are always AT LEAST two ways to say something, and one of them is nice! When forum members have a gut reaction to something, we need to THINK before we fire back a response... Eamonn & JKC -- you guys have a lot of insight & wisdom to share. It would be better received if you were kind in the manner you share. Verbal castigation generally results in someone dropping from the forum, NOT in "learning".

 

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in "this is right & this is wrong" we can't see the forest through the trees.

 

NDL is saying -- DON'T TAKE YOUR WEBELOS CAMPING IN THE WINTER. Then goes on to say if YOU want to camp in the winter, go camping. By all means, invite a friend & his Dad. If they are both Webelos, too, SO WHAT?!? Do any of you go camping with your family? Do any of you ever go camping with friends? Are any of them also in Scouts? Our family often goes camping...with friends...who are in Scouts. This is NOT a Scout outing. We do not wear uniforms & we do not advertise in the Troop or Pack newsletter.

 

This weekend, we are going camping. Some friends are coming. Some of them are Scouts. Some are from broken homes. We will be paintballing. I do not feel the property owner nor the troop/pack leadership are responsible at all...they have nothing to do with this.

 

NDL was just making a suggestion for winter camping if you want to do this activity. (Incidentally, I didn't even realize this was forbidden in the G2SS as our District has routinely invited Webelos to attend Winter Klondike...and spend the night...in tents.)

 

Ma signing off, reminding the children to "play nice"!

 

[John-in-KC]

Ma Scout,

 

First, one disadvantage of chat boards is so much gets lost when we're not talking face to face. So much of our communication includes non-verbal cues

 

Second, when I wrote my last I looked at the direct and the indirect approaches. This time, I decided the direct approach was the path to take.

 

I almost used Eamonn's reference to sod surfing ... where an EXPERIENCED SCOUTER, a District Chairman, tried to get around the rules, because "the end justifies the means"

 

I do not know NDL's outdoor skills. I do not know his personal outfit. He and the families surrounding him may have excellent four season gear. My son and I don't. We're good down to near 0F, with access to some of the Troops gear. Below 0F, we're beyond our equipments capability.

 

A Scout is Trustworthy. A Scout is Obedient. These are basic values of the program. Every Scouter, on his adult leader app, subscribes to the Scout Oath and Law, regardless of program.

 

A Cub Scout follows Akela. That is the first tenet of the Cub Scout Law. What value do we teach the young men and women of Scouting if we ourselves skirt the basics???

 

I've already stated in this thread: Units need to discuss the meaning of "winter" with their local DE's. Different Council H&S Committees will give different guidance. As a Scout, I camped year-round in California, and we gave out the "ice cube" award if our Troop camped below 32F. There are Troops in the Dakotas and the Northern tier who don't get unit awards for cold weather camping unless the temps get to 0F.

 

Enough said.

[Lisabob]

Agreeing with Ma but also...

 

I've known more than a few cub leaders who have "cleverly" circumvented the G2SS rules by holding events that are "family" events rather than "cub" events, including winter camping, rules for water activities, climbing/rapelling, extended camping, den camping with tigers, shooting sports rules, etc., etc., etc..

 

In nearly every case I've seen, these "leaders" say "oh, it isn't a den/pack thing, it is just a group of families where everybody *happens to be* from the same cub group." These folks should be embarrassed. Nobody actually believes this story and everybody knows what's going on here.

 

But...it happens all the time anyway...and I suspect that's part of why Eamon and John responded in rather blunt manners.

 

As for what NLD is actually saying, sure, you can do whatever you want with your family and friends. Please though, don't buy or sell the "cover" that this is really a "family" event when in fact you want to do something with your den or pack that you know BSA prohibits.

 

Lisa'bob

[MaScout]

FTR (For the Record) -- I DO agree with the idea of "do it this way just to circumvent". A Scout is honest. There is nothing honest, obedient, or trustworthy about bending the rules or "cheating" on them.

 

FYI -- The campout I will be participating in this weekend truly isn't a pretend family event...1st -- not all the troop (nor even one patrol) will be there. We are playing. Some of our friends are Scouts. Some are not.

 

How-some-ever...I NEED to check into the "Winter Camp" & Webelos MUCH MORE CLOSELY!!! Where I live, we have a "100 degrees of frost" award -- primarily for Boy Scouts, but also earnable by Webelos who are camping with BS's. I'm thinking this needs to be checked into very closely... (1 degree earned for each degree below freezing, accumulated between 10/01 & 05/31 of one year. Boy Scouts have earned up to 78 degrees on one weekend...NOT a good place for inexperienced campers.) From what I am reading, I believe this needs to be stopped. NOW. Maybe last year...

[John-in-KC]

Ma,

 

I'd start with your District Committee Camping "operations committee". I'd also, through the District Committee, check in with the Council Health and Safety Committee. They'll give you good answers. I forget your position in your unit, but having the Unit Commish come and visit a winter camp may help by providing a different set of eyes.

 

I've been in the field, in my day, well into dry-cold environments. I was on active duty in a green (actually tree) suit, though, and my layers included two of wool before we got to battle dress. I was quite comfortable down to 0F (prise God for Graf boots and 2 pair of GI wool socks!).

 

Yes, we've changed, and a lot of wool has been replaced by polypro. Even so, the layers have to be there to trap the air, and cotton needs to be displaced by wool or polypro as much as humanly possible.

 

Good equipment (parental as well as youth training), good technique (a matter of training the Scouts in the course of bringing them the program), and good warm food keeps Scouts happy, healthy and active in any number of winter environments.

 

As Barry says, I love this Scouting stuff!

[fling1]

Boy, I wish I had chimed in on this before it devolved into a debate about honor and obediance and paintball. Maybe this will nudge us back on-topic...

Beavah is absolutely correct to point out that the Age Appropriate Guidelines (appendix to G2SS) are *guidelines* that even include the YMMV language. If you can provide the level of expertise and supervision that makes it fun and constructive for your den, then do it. But keep your eyes open and don't just assume it will be a cakewalk.

Cubmaster Randy described the perfect scenario -- information, preparedness, and a serious approach led to "best campout ever." What more could you ask??

My Weebs camped over Christmas break as W1s and W2s. Both years we had just a dusting of snow on the ground and it made the outing seem VERY impressive for these boys. In our case, we backpacked about a mile, cooked our dinner, drank hot chocolate, and spent the night. Cooked breakfast and hiked out. Short and sweet. We're in southern Ohio too, so I'm not really guessing about climate (of course in this part of the country we are *always* guessing about the actual weather!).

As far as activities, we just stuck to the basics of camping. The boys collected a giant pile of firewood, and sorted it into sizes. They built the fire. They helped pitch tents. We wrapped a whole chicken in several layers of foil and kept rolling it around the edges of the fire for probably 2 hours or so. We just opened the foil and pulled hunks right off the bone. Roasted chicken never tasted so good :-)

I'll just add that in our case, the boys (or parents) who just couldn't see themselves roughing it to that extent chose not to go. I think we took exactly 1/2 the boys both years.

See the pics, if you're interested..

 

http://www.scouttroop.org/oh/cs/336/winter.html

(This message has been edited by fling1)