Extra Wolf Achievements Appy Toward Electives Arrow Points

[bakerjw]

I have a question whether extra Wolf achievements (those beyond the minimum needed for the achievement) can be applied toward electives to earn arrow points. The current Wolf Book doesn't explicitly state that they can or cannot. I spoke with my Council Program Director who stated that the extra achievements could be counted as electives toward earning arrow points for the Wolf rank. My Cubmaster doesn't think they can be used as electives.

 

My dilemma is that I have been using the CubTrax spreadsheet which counts extra achievements as electives and have awarded arrow points based on that count. It would impact up to 2 arrow points for some boys if they were not allowed to use the extra achievements as electives.

 

Has anyone seen this in writing or been told this by an "Official" BSA source?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Beagle Scout]

I also noticed that WolfTrax suggests extra achievement requirements may be used as electives. Here is another thread I found that says that they CANNOT be used:

 

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=80940

 

Hope this helps!

 

[Cubmaster Randy]

Wolves are not supposed to use unused achievements for electives. Bears can. I don't have the wolf book handy, so I had to go to the virtual leaders handbook to find it. Have you awarded them or do they think they earned them? If they have already been awarded, I would definitly not take them back. No reason to punish (maybe a strong word) a cub for something he had no control over. What were the expectations? Did someone tell them they could or are you just counting up the points near the end of the year?

 

http://www.geocities.com/%7Epack215/arrow-points.html

FOR WOLVES AND BEARS !

Electives are not like achievements. A Wolf or Bear Cub Scout can pick any requirement he likes from the electives and do it. When he has completed ten elective requirements, he has earned his first Arrow Point - a gold one. Only one gold arrow point may be earned during the Wolf year, and one during the Bear year. It is worn 3/4" below and centered under the current rank badge (Wolf and Bear) as shown above.

 

After earning a Gold Arrow Point, a Cub may complete ten more requirements to earn a Silver Arrow Point. Under his Wolf or Bear badge, he may wear as many Silver Arrow Points as he earns. They are worn in rows of two below, centered, and touching the Gold Arrow Point or previously earned Silver Arrow Points for each rank (see above.)

 

 

 

FOR BEARS ONLY!

There are slight differences between the Wolf and Bear Arrow Points rules. In the Bear program, achievement requirements now follow the same rules as the elective requirements. Each one is a separate project. The achievements sometimes require completion of an elective to satisfy a particular requirement. As such, after completing all of his achievements a Bear Cub can go back to his electives and use any requirement he did not count toward his Bear badge. Remember these important rules:

A Bear can mix requirements from electives and unused achievements in any way to get the ten he needs for each Arrow Point.

 

He may earn Arrow Points from the Bear Cub Scout Book until he becomes a Webelos Scout.

 

He may work on these electives all through his Bear year, but he cannot receive Arrow Points until he has earned your Bear badge.

 

Any achievement requirement that he has completed to earn his Bear badge cannot be used again to earn Arrow Points, but there are many more to choose from.

[Beagle Scout]

I think the difference is, Wolves must do 12 out of 12 achievements to earn the rank, Bears get to choose 12 out of 24 achievements to earn the rank. If I'm not mistaken, Bears can only use requirements from the extra achievements toward arrow points, not requirements from achievements used for the rank. For example, if a Bear uses Achievement 9 (What's Cooking - choose 4 of 7 requirements) for his rank and completes requirements 9a-9d, he cannot use 9e, 9f, or 9g as electives.

 

[Cubmaster-Fred]

Beagle Scout is right on the money $$$$$

 

Only portions of requirements that were not used for the rank badge may be used for Bear arrow points.

 

Wolves can only use the electives in the back of the book for arrow points.

 

Fred

[clydesdale115]

Bakerjw - just to let you know, you are not alone in your ???s. When we became Bears, it was quite a challenge to explain to the parents that any extra Achievements could count towards AP, but unused portions of Achievements used toward rank could not - whew, that's a mouthful!

 

Beagle Scout gave the reason - as Bears you have 24 Achievements from which to choose your 12. I think counting them towards AP is a nice way to reward boys for their efforts, even when the achievement doesn't count for rank advancement. And don't discount the electives - some are really fun for the boys!

[bakerjw]

Since my Council Program Director gave the o.k. to use extra Wolf achievements as electives toward arrow points then that's the direction I'm going to go with. I have already given arrow points based on this. It's so close to the end of the scout year for our pack that it wouldn't be fair to pull them back at this point anyway.

 

It's interesting that none of these replies identified anything from a BSA-approved/authorized source (website or document) that stated that either there are no other Wolf electives other than the 23 in the back section of the Wolf book or that extra achievements can NOT be counted as electives toward earning arrow points. Whereas at least two BSA-related sources of info (another Pack website and the Wolftrax spreadsheet) do state extra achievements apply as electives toward arrow points.

 

One might say that having a section in the Wolf book titled "Electives" would be clear. However, even the wording in the book referring to "more than one hundred choices shown in the book" doesn't state only the 23 elective areas are applicable nor give the actual count of electives within these 23 areas.

 

At least the Bear requirements state specifically how to use and not use extra achievements, even though it can be confusing.

 

Thanks for the info and any other info you may have on this.

 

Jim

[Beagle Scout]

Check out the U.S. Scouting Service Project's Arrow Point Trail page for Bears at

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/beararrow.html

 

"There is a big difference in the achievements for arrow points for Bear. In this rank the Cub Scout can go back and do requirements from the ACHIEVEMENTS section of the book and use them as requirements for arrow points, as long as they do not count any requirements from achievements that they used to earn the Bear Badge. Unused parts of achievements that were used for the Bear badge may NOT be counted toward Arrow Points."

 

The implication is that the Wolf achievements do not work like this.

(This message has been edited by Beagle Scout)

[bakerjw]

Beagle Scout,

I read the Bear arrow point requirements statement also and that added even more uncertainty to whether or not extra Wolf achievements could apply to arrow points.

 

I don't want this to seem argumentative because, frankly, I don't like the legalistic view I sometimes see when people argue about the requirements for cub scout awards. I would rather give the boy the award than argue about some nuance or ambiguity in a requirement. I have never seen anyone mention their Cub Scout awards on a job application or resume, but I have seen the excitement in a boy's eyes when he receives a simple arrow point.

 

So for the sake of discussion - You wrote, "The implication is that the Wolf achievements do not work like this." It appears you are making this implication based on the part of the statement, "In this rank the Cub Scout can go back and do requirements from the ACHIEVEMENTS section of the book and use them as requirements for arrow points".

 

The statement also says (in bold face and underlined), "Unused parts of achievements that were used for the Bear badge may NOT be counted toward Arrow Points." Assuming the statement, "There is a big difference in the achievements for arrow points for Bear", is meant to impose requirements on the Wolf rank then one could also imply, "Unused parts of achievements that were used for the WOLF badge MAY BE counted toward Arrow Points."

 

It is unfortunate the writers of the Wolf arrow point requirements weren't as specific as the writers for the Bear requirements. However, it is also unfortunate the writers of the Bear requirements made it seem overly complicated!

 

I think we have to be careful imposing requirements on the Wolf rank from something written about the Bear requirements. Wolf scouts and parents (and Den Leaders) most likely would not review the Bear requirements to determine what they can and cannot do to earn Wolf arrow points.

 

Like I said before, please don't take this as being argumentative, but merely as interesting discussion around the Bug Juice container (or the coffee pot depending on your beverage preferences).

 

Take care,

Jim

 

 

 

[Beagle Scout]

bakerjw,

 

No offense taken. You asked for official references, so I pointed out the USSSP site, which may not be official but seems close. Neither the Wolf book nor the USSSP site says anything about counting unused Wolf requirements as electives. Without considering any other sources of information, I would have to conclude that unused Wolf requirements may not be counted as electives. I don't think that most people would think to do so unless they were also aware of the Bear program. The question arises once people are aware of how the Bear electives work, prompting some to go back and reinterpret the rules for Wolf electives. I believe that is why the USSSP sites points out that there is "a big difference in the achievements for arrow points for Bear." After the Wolf program, the Bear program treats electives differently. However, I agree it would be clearer if the Wolf book explicitly stated that unused requirements may not be used as electives.

 

I would never try and take away an award that has already been given to a boy. If arrow points have already been given based on a different interpretation of the program, I would let the boys keep them, but I would consider the information in this thread for how the awards are handled next year.

 

Beagle Scout

 

[johndaigler]

bakerjw,

 

For "official" documentation, you really don't need to look beyond page 6 in the Wolf Handbook (I use the '03 edition). The section entitled "The Arrow Point Trail" clearly separates Achievements from Electives. They're defined differently, and given discrete purposes. Additionally, they're described as being parts of different "Trails" (Wolf and Arrow Point).

 

I know there are Packs that stretch and interpret the lack of specific denial of "Achiements = Electives" (in order to award additional arrow points?). I don't honestly see how you can read that as the intent of the handbook's program, but it seems like a small issue.

 

If your pack wants to do it that way, fine -- just two thoughts:

 

a)your entire pack should agree and act as if this is Pack policy - it's not a decision for an individual wolf DL to make for one year, and

 

b)don't sweat trying to convince others this is really the way the program works - it isn't. But, it's a small change your pack is making, and it may motivate your Cubs to learn something new. How can that be bad?

 

c)IMHO, Your CPD should know better.

 

d)Is Cubtrax "official"?

 

jd

[ScoutNut]

"It's interesting that none of these replies identified anything from a BSA-approved/authorized source (website or document) that stated that either there are no other Wolf electives other than the 23 in the back section of the Wolf book or that extra achievements can NOT be counted as electives toward earning arrow points. Whereas at least two BSA-related sources of info (another Pack website and the Wolftrax spreadsheet) do state extra achievements apply as electives toward arrow points."

 

Neither a Pack website or a spreadsheet program written by a volunteer and put on the internet for all to use should be considered as "BSA-related" beyond the fact that both are about the same subject, Scouting. Using that criteria, THIS forum is also "BSA-related", yet you do not want to believe what we are telling you on the matter OF Wolf Electives. NONE OF THESE SITES ARE "OFFICIAL BSA" SITES!

 

From the Wolf Handbook, copyright 2003 by the BSA, (THAT makes it OFFICIAL BSA information) -

 

 

Page 6 -

 

"The Arrow Point Trail

 

Your Cub Scout can also search the Arrow Point trail. On the Wolf trail, the main sections were called achievements, things that we would like all boys to do. On the Arrow Point Trail, the main sections are called electives, choices that a boy can make on his own and with your guidance. To earn a Gold Arrow Point to wear beneath his Wolf badge, a boy must complete any 10 elective projects of the more than 100 choices shown in the book. For every 10 additional electives he completes, the Wolf Cub Scout qualifies for a Silver Arrow Point to wear beneath the Gold."

 

 

Page 109 -

 

"Arrow Point Trail"

 

"This arrow point tells you what to do" (picture of a solid black arrow point)

 

"Fill in this arrow point when you have done it" (picture of an outline of an arrow point)

 

"With your first 10 FILLED-IN (emphasis mine) arrow points you can get your GOLD Arrow Point; 10 more gives you a SILVER Arrow Point; and 10 more gives you another SILVER Arrow Point; an so on. You can keep track of your arrow points on pages 236 and 237."

 

 

Page 236 -

 

"Arrow Point Trail"

 

"Fill in 10 arrowheads to earn a Gold Arrow Point."

"Fill in 10 more arrowheads to earn EACH Silver Arrow Point."

 

Below that are 23 elective categories listed with their page number (I's a Secret page 110) and 129 (your more than 100 choices) arrowhead outlines for filling in.

 

That is pretty darn specific & clear cut to me & as "OFFICIALLY BSA" as you can get. Achievements are achievements, electives are electives & if there is no arrowhead to fill in then it is NOT an elective.

 

If you are looking for a specific sentence in a BSA publication that says that using achievements for Wolf electives is NOT allowed, you aren't going to find it. You also aren't going to find a specific sentence stating that in order to earn Requirement 5b, Show how to use a pliers, the Wolf Cub Scouts should NOT demonstrate on fingers, toes or other body parts.

 

I realize you are trying to come up with proof for yourself and rationalizations of why you should use the achievements because you have ALREADY USED THEM. However, despite what your Council Program Director has ok'd, that is NOT how the BSA wrote their Wolf Cub Scout program.

 

IF you have already presented your boys with these electives then it is water under the bridge. If not, then I would simply explain to your families that you made a mistake and eliminate the incorrect electives. We all make mistakes. It would be nice to show the boys how mistakes SHOULD be handled.

 

BTW - perhaps you should contact the person or website you got the tracker spreadsheet from & let them know they have an error on their spreadsheet that needs to be corrected.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beagle Scout]

I was looking through my nephew's old Bear book (1998 edition) to get an idea of some of the things my son will be doing next year. I'm not sure if the 2003 edition is the same, but if I remember correctly, in the 1998 edition there are places to sign off achievements used as electives. Since there are no similar signoff lines in the Wolf book, I would conclude that achievements cannot be used as electives for arrow points during the Wolf year.

 

At the bottom of the home page for the Trax spreadsheets (http://trax.boy-scouts.net/) there is the following disclaimer:

"Frank Steele of Pack 615 and Troop 615, League City, TX is solely responsible for the CubTrax, ScoutTrax, VenturingTrax, and OtherTrax series spreadsheets and their support. The BSA does not endorse, support, or in any way acknowledge them."

 

I have been using the WolfTrax spreadsheet this year for our Wolf den. However, I modified it to conform to my understanding that achievements may not be used as electives during the Wolf year.

 

[KurtB]

Earlier this year, I had the same questions when I looked at Mr. Steele's tracker. Incorrectly thinking it was just a mistake on his part (we all make mistakes), I sent an email to Frank asking if he realized that his tracker was incorrect. His reply to me was to the effect that "because so many packs, including his own, used the "extra" achievements towards arrow points (like for the Bear rank)", he designed the tracker that way. He also told me that if I wanted to modify the tracker to make it correct, feel free. He also asked that I not make public my copy if I did modify it. It took all of 15 minutes for me to make it track correctly.

 

Kurt

[danknel]

Something extra that helps clear this up is Bear book page 6 – “Achievements that were not used to earn the Bear badge may be used as electives. However, note that unused parts of achievements that were used for the Bear badge may not be counted toward arrow points.†On page 290 of the Bear book it allows you to track Achievement number and letter toward arrow point trail, however this isn't even an option with the Wolf arrows. Both of these examples show the intent of usage of the Wolf achievements to be exclusively toward the wolf badge only.