Forms, Forms, Forms!

[BelieveinScouts]

Hello all,

 

I am a Cub Scout Den Leader for a Bear Den. Actually, they just earned their Bear Badges, so I guess they could be considered Webelos now.

 

Anyway, we are trying to take a field trip to participate in the Young Eagles program. If you need more info on them check out this link: http://www.youngeagles.org

 

I was looking at our Council site and found the forms for a Local Tour permit. It asks a lot of questions that I don't have answers for. Like the Insurance coverage amounts on everyone's car. I didn't know. I actually had to call my Insurance Company and ask them what my coverage amounts were. If I had that problem, than I imagine most of my parents will also. Everyone is driving their own child, in their own cars. We are caravanning over to the Airport. The Airport is 15.59 miles from us, and should only take us 24 mins to drive to.

 

I printed off the consent forms for all my parents to fill out. I also printed off the Flying Permit form for our contact at Young Eagles. I mailed it to him yesterday. It asks for copies of their Flight certificates, medical certificates, etc.

 

Our Contact called me today. I told him I sent that form. He said they won't know the make and model of the Aircraft being used until the day we fly. He also said the pilots won't want to provide all the copies of the certificates etc. He was able to give me their EAA. I told him to provide what he could for me, and that I would take it from there.

 

He also said they've been through this with the Scouts before, and had to contact a person from the National Headquarters to straighten it all out last time. He's going to try and find that persons name and get back to me. He said the person from the National Headquarters said all of that other info (copies of certificates, etc.) wasn't necessary. The link to the form I'm talking about is here: http://www.danbeard.org/pdf/General/23-672.pdf

 

He said the only thing they weren't allowed to do was fly Scouts in Experimental Aircraft (planes built from kits). They will not be using any experimental aircraft for our group.

 

I want to make sure that I file all the appropriate paperwork, but it seems like this is a lot of hassle. The trip will consist of the boys going through a little Ground School program, they'll get to use the Flight simulator, and then they'll get to go up in an Airplane. I'd also like to get this straightened out because I know that our other Leaders all wanted to book trips for their Dens as well.

 

It says that I need to file my Local Tour Permit at least two weeks before our trip so I'm running out of time. This should be an awesome Field trip for my boys and I'd hate to see them miss it because an I wasn't dotted, or a T wasn't crossed.

 

Thankfully, our District Executive is awesome. I E-mailed him and he's going to look into it for me. We've never filed a local Tour Permit for any of our field trips until now, so this is all new to me. I've been a Leader for three years now too. I'd hate to think of all the cool trips we've taken, that the boys might have missed out on if I had filed all the appropriate paperwork and run into miles of red tape.

 

We live in a medium size town, in between two big cities. Most of our field trips take place in one of those two big cities. It takes probably a half hour to 45 mins to drive to all of them. Even our Council Campground is 45 mins away.

 

How does everyone else feel about this? Are we supposed to file a local Tour permit for every trip we take? Even if it's local? I've never gotten consent forms from the parents before because their parents are always with them.

 

Am I doing this all wrong? If it's this much hassle to take a field trip, I can see why some groups don't take them. We go on about one field trip a month. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

We did a young eagles field trip with our webelos den a couple of years ago - it was fabulous and the boys still talk about it.

 

Ours was combined with a fall camporee sponsored by a district so I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but we were not given any kind of hassle about filling out a flying permit? In fact I never heard of one and (grinning sheepishly here) I am rather concrete-sequential about making sure all the paperwork is taken care of.

 

We did have to fill out a local tour permit and yes, every time you have a field trip, you should be doing this. It does NOT have to be a big deal. Two things that make the driver/insurance stuff easier:

 

1) At the beginning of your scout year, collect info from all drivers to keep on file (if you use various commercial advancement tracking software like Cubmaster, there's a place to enter this info right into your program). Then whenever you go anywhere and have people driving other people's kids, you will already have all the info you need.

 

At least in our state as well, drivers are required by law to have insurance and the mandatory minimum amounts of coverage exceed BSA standards for ordinary cars so there's really not much of a problem here. I don't know if that's true where you are but your council staff should know - they handle these forms all the time.

 

2) In our council at least, proof of insurance, etc., is only required when you are driving someone else's child - NOT if each parent is driving their own child. In that case, we have always been allowed to indicate that all parents are driving their own children, end of story. I don't know if that is just a local interpretation or not but you might ask your DE or other council office staff about it.

 

Also, although it does say to turn in the form at least 2 weeks ahead of time and we've always tried to be timely, we've never really had a problem with this. The woman who approves tour permits can usually do it on the spot as long as you've included the relevant information. But again, I suppose that might not be the case everywhere so you should probably inquire about this.

 

I really hope you won't let the paperwork get to you! It is an issue in terms of insurance and liability and it can be a pain in the, er, neck. But while it is too important to skip, it shouldn't keep you from attending fun events! Don't let it all get you down - and maybe for the future, enlist another parent in the den/pack to help you with all this stuff so you don't end up doing it all yourself.

 

Lisa'bob

[SWScouter]

I won't comment on the flying permit form. As for the tour permit, since you are not providing transportation, you shouldn't need to worry about the transportation part of the local tour permit. Just write, "parent provided transportation." At least that's all I had to do filling out the LTPs here in Grand Canyon Council. You may want to call your council service center and verify if that is fine for you to do or not. Also, the two weeks is usually so there is plenty of time for mailing the forms back and forth and ensuring everything is fine. If you fax the forms and supply a fax number for the approved form you can get by with a week. If you hand deliver, it will probably be approved on the spot. I don't know how big of an impact the flying permit will have though.

 

My daughter did this with her girl scout troop. It's a great program and the den should have a great time.

 

SWScouter

[ScoutNut]

From the "Guide To Safe Scouting" on Aircraft & Tour Permits -

 

"Aircraft

 

Air travel is subject to the following rules:

 

On any flight scheduled by a commercial airline.

The BSA Flying Permit, No. 19-672 (see sample in appendix), is required for all BSA flying activities except for commercial flights. The local council reviews and approves the flight permit just as it would a tour permit. The Parent/Guardian Consent Form, No. 19-673, is also required. Units should attach the signed consent forms to the BSA Flying Permit Application and keep a copy of the signed consent forms in their files.

Flying in hang gliders, ultralights, experimental class aircraft, and hot-air balloons (whether or not they are tethered); parachuting, and flying in aircraft as part of a search and rescue mission are unauthorized activities.

Airplane travelers are cautioned about what they pack in their luggage. In flight, variations in temperature and air pressure can cause some hazardous materials to leak or ignite. Included in the category of hazardous materials that should not be packed in luggage are matches or lighters; flammable liquids and gases; signal flares and other explosives; bleaches, aerosols, mercury, and solvents containing dangerous chemicals that can cause toxic fumes and corrosion.

 

Tour Permits

 

If a unit plans a trip within 500 miles of the home base, it is important that the unit obtain a local tour permit. A national tour permit is required for trips in excess of 500 miles from home or outside the continental United States. (See samples of both in the appendix.)

 

Tour permits have become recognized by national parks, military institutions, and other organizations as proof that a unit activity has been well planned and organized and is under capable and qualified leadership. These organizations may require the tour permit for entry.

 

Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents."

 

 

Local Tour Permits are needed for insurance purposes & to be sure that the proper BSA guidelines are being followed. Call your local Council Service Center & talk to the person in charge of approving Tour Permits. They should be able to help you out with any questions & be able to help if you are in a time crunch.

 

Permission slips are a good idea for all outings, even if the parents are present. They should include emergency contact numbers of someone who will be available at home during the outing, health info & medical insurance info. The point of this is to prevent problems if something happens to the parents or the whole family while on the outing. This is especially important if the outing involves ANY potential danger (like flying).

[LongHaul]

BelieveinScouts,

You have a copy of the Flying Permit. You speak of the materials you requested from the pilots so I'm lead to believe you've read the reverse side of the Flying Permit. You know that EAA Young Eagle Flights are specifically noted and specific information is requested. What ever you choose to do and whomever's advice you decide to take remember that if you are in charge you will be the one explaining yourself if "something" happens. Everything goes fine it's one thing, "something" goes wrong you better have followed all the rules.

LongHaul

[BelieveinScouts]

Hello all,

 

I thank you all for your advice. We went on our Field trip and had a great time. The Weather was perfect! No one was hurt, and I'm sure it's something the boys will remember forever.

 

Incidentally, The Pilot that was our contact said that ever since 9/11 they don't make copies of their Flight Certificates and hand them out, or their Medical Certificates. He told me that they don't know which planes they are using until the day they fly. He also said that they had run into this before with Scout Groups, and it was such a hassle they had to go all the way to National Headquarters to get clearance. The only rule they had to follow was no experimental aircraft (meaning not built in a factory, but from a kit. Even though experimental aircraft have to be deemed airworthy by the FAA before they are allowed to fly too). He even gave me the name of the Exec at National. I gave it to my District Exec, and he called him.

 

After talking to him, My District Exec told me that I could get the Make and model of the aircraft on the day we go, and all the Pilots names and file the paperwork afterwards. That's what we did.

 

As for the Tour permits, I think they should have a waiver parents can sign too. I've had a lot of my parents say that the information they want (such as insurance limits) is too intrusive and none of their business. Especially when they are driving their own child. They said they should be able to say "Yes, I'm insured" and that's it. I've had parents tell me they got a loan on their house and didn't have to fill out as much paperwork. LOL I'm pretty sure they were exaggerating.

 

It does seem very personal. I'm almost embarrassed to ask for it. Next year I'm going to ask for it at the beginning of the year, as well as a Class 1 Health form, and just keep them on file for future trips.

 

I hate to see Scouts get a rep among other organizations, like Young Eagles, as being a pain in the neck to deal with too.

 

This Pilot told me that he didn't mind flying the boys, but if we weren't able to straighten this out, they might just stop doing Scout groups all together. That would be too bad, because I know three other Dens in our Pack wanted to schedule their own trips. Thankfully it all went well though.

 

I just hope BSA doesn't get so bogged down in the paperwork that they forget that the boys just want to have fun. The parents are the ones that get them there. If it's too much of a hassle, the parents will stop bringing them. There has to be a happy medium. Maybe parents that want to make sure their child is insured through the BSA on a field trip can fill out the local tour permit, those that could care less, could sign a waiver. I hear the Girl Scouts have them.

 

I've heard people on this forum say that you aren't allowed to have family Camp-outs. Oops. We've had one every year. Each child came with their family and we all camped together and had a ball. We even worked on Scout skills. That was before I knew about the local tour permits, etc. I have to say though, I have no regrets. We had a blast on those outings, and I would have hated to miss them because a parent was offended and decided not to go when I asked for their liability coverage amount.

 

I'm sure next year will go smoother now that I know in advance. I think Scouts needs to remember sometimes though, it's Scouts, not the Military. Chill out.

[Beavah]

Wish I had seen this earlier, since we live up here by the EAA headquarters.

 

Our understanding is that the flying tour permit details, including pilot certificates and all that, are not required for Scouts to participate in an official EAA Young Eagles event. This was a formal arrangement with the BSA and EAA that was arranged some years back, in part because the EAA is providing insurance coverage for Young Eagles events that takes effect before any BSA coverage. The EAA parent consent form substitutes for the BSA form.

 

We hear that in other areas of the country, council staff are not as well informed.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Our experience was that the flying permit forms were incredibly confusing for an EAA event. But the EAA has tons of insurance *as the EAA*, so it doesn't really matter which pilots/planes are being used. We filled out the front of the form, left the back pretty much blank, and sent it off to council. As always, we heard nothing back from them.

 

We do not need insurance amounts for people who are driving their own children. We only require it if you're going to drive someone else's children, and then it seems reasonable. Pretty much, the pack never needs it, but the troop always does.

 

We file a tour permit for any overnight camping trips we take, but not for shorter day trips.

 

Oak Tree