Cub Scout overnighter at museum/aquarium

[cb2boys]

Hello...was wanting to know what other Packs were requiring if a den wants to do an "overnighter" event at a museum/aquarium...

 

I know alot of different places offer them, like "sleeping with the sharks", etc...

 

Would you require the leader to be Baloo trained? Would you require at least 1 parent per boy - regardless of rank?

 

In essence it's overnight, BUT it isn't camping, and it's in a controlled environement...

 

Thanks!

[MaScout]

I don't have a good answer to the "camping" question, but BALOO trained leaders or not, you aren't supposed to take a Cub Scout group "camping" unless the site is on the "approved" list by your council... So, is it camping? Is it "legal" by BSA rules? I don't know. I just know the museum probably is not an "approved" camp site.

[LongHaul]

cb2boys,

Baloo is required for any activity held outside your normal meeting place, that's National policy. As for the museum being on the approved list that is a local council call. There is a form you can fill out to request an inspection, it's publication 13-508. I'd suggest you call you local council office unless you think they wouldn't be familiar with the museum your thinking about. Odds are your not the first to have this question.

As to leadership requirements it depends on the age groups and your feelings on keeping tabs on the kids during the night. Im from Chicago and we have a number of museums which host scout lock in overnights. I've done the Planetarium and the Museum of Science and Industry with Cub Scouts. It was basically a parent for each scout but some parents brought siblings so there wasn't a one to one adult to child relationship. Also both events were attended by numerous packs. The kids liked it.

LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[scoutldr]

Having just re-read the description of BALOO training, the two operative words that stand out are "Outdoor" and "Overnight". Indeed the term BALOO is an acronym that stands for "Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation". It is designed for cub scout camping. I don't think that a "field trip" to the aquarium qualifies as "camping" and therefore requiring BALOO and a council site inspection. I am on the Council camping committee...we do not inspect the site every time a unit wants to do a "lock in" or other such event. We do publish a list of approved sites for Cub Camping....they are all campgrounds.

 

The more important and apropos training that ALL adults should have for an event like this would be YP.

 

Just my opinion.

[Lisabob]

When I was a cub leader we did a fair number of these types of indoor overnighters. Our council interpretation was that a BALOO-trained leader should be present at each of these even though they're not technically camp-outs.

 

As for being on the approved camping facility list - this is something our council has wrangled over (for a long time there WAS no list - which of course did not mean that there was no camping going on!). However, at least here, now, it is easy to get a venue approved. All it now requires around here is that you complete a tour permit and get it approved by the appropriate council folks.

 

To be on the safe side, yes I'd want a BALOO person present and I'd file a tour permit, and I'd check in advance with council to make sure that this squares with their interpretation of "the rules."

 

Have fun - sounds like a good trip!

 

Lisa'bob

[Lisabob]

Oh, and about adult attendance - double check this (it has been a couple of years for me) but I believe the requirement for adult attendance is somewhat more relaxed for webelos than for other cubs. I seem to recall that we REQUIRED an adult to attend with younger cubs but that for webelos we allowed, say, one parent to take 2 or 3 boys even if they were not their own children (with permission slips signed by the children's custodial parents/guardians).

 

Regardless, don't forget 2 deep leadership, YPT (BALOO rules say at least one YPT person should be there), and you probably ought to have Class One health forms as well.

 

 

Lisa'bob

 

[ScoutNut]

National policy is that one adult must be current Youth Protection trained on all trips & outings (not BALOO).

 

A Tour Permit (local or national depends on the distance) is neccessary as are permission slips (even if parents are present).

 

I would have as many parents as possible & only if a parent can not attend can they approve another family member or adult to be in charge of their son.

 

This is what BSA has to say on museum overnighters for Cubs -

 

" Lock-ins or overnight programming at local museums or other appropriate locations may be approved by the local council.

Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents or guardians are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Let's feed in some POLICY from the Guide to Safe Scouting...

 

Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other

than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy

Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight

settings with two or more family members, including at

least one BSA member of that family. Parents are

responsible for the supervision of their children, and

Youth Protection guidelines apply.

 

I read that as saying a family camping experience requires 1 parent to 1 child. Should Mom or Dad have more than 1 child in the Pack, I believe the ratio is one parent to his/her children.

 

Pack Overnighters

 

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Park Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

 

Adults giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) training to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site

selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.

 

So, BALOO is a requirement, standard YP practices are a requirement, 1:1 ratio (or 1:his/her children) is required, and the Tour Permit process is required.

 

Have fun planning this trip!!!

[LongHaul]

Scoutnut,

Again I will say the GTSS is in revision and things may change. Local Councils can an should decide exactly at what point a tour permit must be filled. Yes BALOO is designed for safety purposes in conjunction with camping but it also covers simple outdoor activities. Your local council can require BALOO training for a day at the Zoo. Concerning the event of the original post the operative term is "overnight". No matter where the "overnight" is held if it's within the Cub Scout Program BALOO is required. "A BALOO trained leader must be in attendance at each pack overnighter." is repeated in many publications and can be found in the Cub Scout Leaders Book under Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation.

 

scoutldr,

Reinspection of Council approved camping facilities is only necessary when the Council feels it is required. The inspection form is used to get new facilities on the approved list. Like Lisabob's council mine never had a list, getting a permit was considered enough even though it is in direct violation of National policy. The approved camping list is supposed to guarantee a minimum standard for Cub Scout aged campers, without actually seeing the campsite (at some point) a council should never approve a permit for Cub Scout camping activities. Again with reference to the original post the question becomes is an indoor lock in camping? National is not specific on this, as far as I can find, so it becomes a local Council decision. My council hosts sleep ins at the Museums as do our neighboring councils.

Again I stress things are changing, we never were required to get a permit to use Council owned camps, now we do. As has been noted in other threads actual registration is being required for adults attending long term camps. There is talk that Fast Start, NLE, and basic position training will soon be required for all adults attending long term camps, which is a total reversal of position which encouraged "parent" participation. Can't wait till I get a copy of the new GTSS.

LongHaul

 

[ScoutNut]

The "Guide To Safe Scouting" has already been updated as of April 5, 2006. You can find the most current copy, along with all changes, online at -

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gssay.html

 

If you are planning an outing NOW you must go by what is CURRENTLY in the Guide & in other BSA pulications. You can not plan properly working with rumors & what if's. You also can not hold off planning an outing until some unknown time when some rumored changes might appear.

 

[LongHaul]

Just remember that the online version is the old version you have to make the changes yourself, they can be found in "Updates" (which is the link Scoutnut gave us) but not all of them are spelled out.

LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[ScoutNut]

The online version of the "Guide to Safe Scouting" is not the "old" version. The changes itemized in the Appendix have been made to the online version as of the dates listed.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Scoutnut,

I don't know what you are looking at but if you go to the link you provided and look at the fourth red highlighted section Youth Protection & Adult Leadership: Youth Protection in Scouting you will see a revision identified by the number 1. This revision discribes a change to the wording contained in the last parapragh of the section titled Barriers to Abuse Within Scouting. If you click on the red highlighted area it will take you to the online version of the relevant section. Scroll down to the last paragraph under Barriers to Abuse within Scouting and you will see that the revisions have not been made to the online version. None of the corrections are included in the text of the online version. Take a copy of the GTSS 33416E and you will find it word for word to be what is on line. The new revised version is designated as 34416F.

LongHaul